Yeah, if rest doesn't kill, its sucks. If knee doesn't kill, it still feels awesome lol

Here's what I don't like about Jigglypuff: she's always been a character that lacked range, and I'm fine with that. But you need something to help in matchups against swords or giant monkey limbs, because getting wrecked by 1/3 of the cast does not make a viable character. In the past (and in Melee), Puff relied on her airspeed to weave in and out, and a fabulous punish game to kill really early and capitalize a lot off of 1 hit. But now both of these have been severely nerfed: her airspeed is worse compared to v0.9a, and her punish game has been whacked with the nerf hammer as well, removing a lot of the combos that made her good and nerfing her main kill move and equalizer, the former godsend that is Rest.

I'm not advocating a return to very OP (compared to the rest of the cast) v0.9a Puff, who could tack on 40% and spend the rest of the game camping, and then immediately combo into Rest to kill whenever you made a tiny mistake or they got a read. However, in order for Puff to be viable, she needs some of both airspeed and punish game. If you buffed Rest both in hitbox size and power at a midway point between now and next version, buffed her airspeed, and slightly buffed her combo game, I think it would do wonders for her really bad matchups without making any of her better ones too one-sided.

This ^^^

Agree completely. The only problem I see with buffed airspeed is it could cause to her being practically impossible to fight against Puff offstage, both trying to get back or trying to finish her. I thought a good way to counterbalance this would be by nerfing subsequent midair jumps, making 'em just as they are in the original games: first two are still pretty good, then average and the last one barely any height.

^^^
I think this is a good idea, but I worry that if you nerf her jumps too much, she'll have no vertical recovery. Puff is such a difficult character to balance because of how extreme her attributes are, and I hope that the devs will find a way to not make Puff too strong in anything but also keep her viable and fun to play as.

I think Jiggs would actually be a good if not viable character if other characters' projectiles/neutral game options were toned down a little. Jiggs has terrible MUs, but they're mostly against campy characters who have crazy range. Like, the best Jiggs has no chance against a mildly competent Link, but that's not Jiggs problem. It's a Link having too good a toy chest problem. You can still have the what has become classic from Melee Fox-Jiggs MU in this game. But characters who dominate the neutral game make her look silly.

Not really sure if that would be such a big problem, considering most of the times recovering with her you end up really high; most situations in this game don't force Puff into just barely getting the edge. If this were to happen tho, I'd say a buff of a few pixels for her Rising Pound could do the trick: wouldn't be OP since it would still be hella slow to perform and could help to get to the stage in a few more situations.

Also agree 100% on the last part.


Are you sure Link is that dominant? I mean he's good and all, but never thought he was as you described it. In melee if you watch the Armada/Hbox sets you see YLink has even more projectiles at once and still Jiggly has a chance against him, in fact the MU seems to no longer favor YLink at all. With her being able to kick most projectiles he shoots (dunno how reliable that's reliable in this game tho) and weave in and out she can clearly fight. In this game tho is evident she can't do the "weaving" part.

I think her worst MU's are Ichigo and DK, mainly because both outrange her with most attacks and have strong attacks that can kill her early. If you've seen Puff vs Mewtwo in PM is kinda similar to both these situations: it's just too hard getting in.

Agree on the Pound buff and Puff matchups.

I think that Puff should have problems getting in, because she (would if she were buffed) have/has so much else going for her. Ichigo and DK are kind of insane right now (although Jiggz can actually combo them and kill at 90%, so it's not as bad as some people say). I stand by what I've said in other threads that Link's zoning can be beaten with a powershield or two, and good aerial maneuvering. Jigglypuff, even with nerfed airspeed, is more than capable of getting around the projectiles. While the matchup is bad, projectile zoning is easier to get around then Ichigo mixing up uspec, SH nair, utilt, and other moves, which makes every approach by Puff a guess, and getting it wrong means 20% damage or death if you're at 80% or more. Because Ichigo, DK, and the like have so many good ranged options, Puff has no good way of reacting to what they do. They can just wall out and win the game: they don't even need to approach. I'd really like these terrible MU's be more like Fox/Puff in Melee: if you want to play the wall-out game, then you need to be good at it or you get punished hard. This would encourage more approaching from these characters, and make the game more balanced and multidimensional in general.

I play Jiggs like Snake Eyes' Gief, just master footsies/ neutral and when your opponent does something dumb, get in there and take that stock lol.


^ example of his Zangief in Ultra SF4.

Zangief is the last person I ever thought Jiggs would be compared to.

I just imagined Puff performing the spinning pile driver.

I'm starting to love playing Jiggs Alot of people haven't realized Jigg's Sing got buffed and can actually lead to rest at 90% and gaurantee a rest at 120%+. Sing(or atleast sleep) is so powerful in this demo. Also Jigg's has the best rolls in the demo. So I started using them to travel on the ground rather than her dash.

I feel Jigglypuff should have a few buffs, especially with her KO power outside of Rest. She shares alot in common in terms of concept with DK. Since they're both fast and can be KOed at ridiculous percents. They need the KO power to compensate. And currently Jiggs lacks that.

Rollout: It needs to charge faster, the speed and power are perfect the way it is. It also needs it's mechanics fixed. Landing a successful Rollout puts Jiggs in never ending cooldown until she lands, meaning if you're near the ledge you will SD. Also there's a glitch where if you hit someone within the first frames of releasing a fully charged rollout you will fly off stage and SD.

Better KO power on aerials: Her BAir and NAir just need better knockback scaling. So if the opponent is at 130%+ those moves should reliably ko.

Rest: Rest needs more power imo, everyone knows that. On a side note I feel rest needs either less cooldown or should have pure vertical knockback so it will always cause a star ko. Also I think it would be cool if rest had a poison effect(since there are no damage flowers in SSF2) similar to Brawl and Smash4.

Jumps and Air Speed: I like the idea of Jiggs getting better air speed by having her later jumps be shorter. Like her first 3 jumps could be the same in height and be awesome. Then her last 2 jumps can be half the height amd be less awesome.

Other Misc. ideas:
•UAir needs a smidge wider hitbox so it can hit infront of Jiggs. That way Jiggs has an approach option that will force opponent into the air!
•DAir needs less aerial lag so it can lead into another aerial like Peach's DAir.
•Her Ftilt has the speed and the range(great buff btw) but it just needs a bit more knockback or hitstun.
•Her Down Smash could come out faster, since it has the cooldown of a staggering horse. Good Range and KO power tho.
•Up Smash just needs a tiny bit more power, it should be able to ko at 110%

Thoughts:
Rollout isn't supposed to be used offstage for the reasons you say. I don't think buffing the charge time is important: I see it as a niche punish move for moves like Ichigo's up-B, and it fills that niche quite well.
I honestly don't think bair and nair need buffing. They are good combo moves and will KO offstage, which is where they are meant to be used.
Totally agree with the rest buff to star KO and power. Also, a slight increase to hitbox size would be helpful
I think nerfing Jiggz' jumps will nerf her combo game, which is the last thing we need. The last 2 jumps would invalidate a lot of combos. I think she can get buffed airspeed without any jump nerfs

I think her other moves are fine: a Rest buff and airspeed buff would make her viable.

I never gave a reason to use Rollout offstage I said the recoil from landing rollout can cause Jiggs to fall over the ledge and SD.

But yeah Rest and Air Speed buff are really all she needs.

That's how it is in official titles