Sweet Christmas, there's a lot wrong with this list:

Let's look at the top half of the list (first three tiers):

Lloyd, Ichigo, Meta Knight and Sheik are too high.
Lloyd should at the very least be below Tails, Samus and Marth because whilst he has an extremely strong kit, the other three characters either have more abusable traits than Lloyd (e.g. Samus), or overall just have ridiculously solid kits (e.g. Tails). Ichigo is in a similar boat, and he really doesn't belong in the top 5 let alone the top 3. Ichigo can seriously struggle to kill his opponent and that puts him as probably the worst of the top 7 purely because of his lack of consistent kill power and relatively mediocre frame data.

Meta Knight and Sheik belong in mid tier. Maybe in the upper echelons of mid tier, but mid tier all the same. Meta Knight has an extremely bad tech roll, suffers a bit from difficulty killing, and most importantly, has an abysmal damage output and underwhelming normals despite their disjointed range. Sheik has barely any hitstun on her normals as well, so she fundamentally suffers due to having difficulty continuing combos, as well as a lack of true and consistently good kill setups.

The rest of that section is mostly okay save for a few placing problems I have, but generally, you have the right idea of what characters belong in that area.

Now let's look at the mid tier...

Bandana Dee, Naruto, Sora and Isaac are too high, whilst Yoshi is so low that I'm astounded.

Bandana Dee does have decent combos, however, his neutral is mediocre at best. he loses to pretty much every top/high tier in the game aside from maybe Peach, and even loses to some lower tier characters like Bowser purely because of his terrible survivability and a lack of a good combo ender. Naruto meanwhile is pretty unquestionably bottom 3 - his neutral is mediocre at best, he doesn't have a good punish game and he probably has one of, if not the worst recovery/ies in the game. Sora and Isaac could both shift down a tier, as frankly, the other characters are just better. Sora does suffer from hitbox problems on some moves and has a bit of an iffy disadvantage stage, whilst Isaac has bad frame data, a weak recovery, and some normals that can actually be clanked.

Yoshi meanwhile, has a practically lagless shield, a great punish game, a pretty good offstage game with a fairly large amount of heavy armour on his double jump and some good normals for edgeguarding, and a surprisingly decent neutral game. I'd say he probably belongs where Bandana Dee is now.

The low tier section doesn't need much to say, all I will say:

Kirby isn't the worst by a long shot. Some characters get shut down by port Inhale and he has a good punish game even if his offstage is somewhat lacking. PAC-MAN also isn't bottom 3, despite what Playridise may tell you. He still has a lot of good item and hydrant shenanigans and some pretty solid traps and infinites.


I will say that there aren't a lot of serious issues with the list, it's just the issues with the list are usually pretty glaring.

That tier list is fantastic, wdym Strife? You have such a trash opinion m8. Don't be jealous that his tier list is better than urs. Pac-Man's placement alone proves how great his tier list is compared to urs. You know who also has fruit and hydrant shenanigans? Pac-Man in Smash 4. He TOTALLY isn't terrible ya know? ;>>

I redid my tier list! Enjoy!




Explanations:
: He has horrible projectiles and his few projectiles that ARE GOOD TAKE FOREVER TO GET GETTING HIM PUNISHED!!!! He also has bad moves overall and his kill moves have hard reads or get him punished, his only good tool is his hydrant which can get kicked right back in his face
: has the fence of pain, a good kill move in down-b, a good projectile in neutral-b, and a decent recovery in up-b and an amazing combo game, his only flaws are his weight and his abysmal side special which can only be used for approaching, and can only be used for that when you get a pin which isn't guaranteed to happen!
: has decent mobility if you soap, has good kill moves in his smash attacks, up-b, and side-b, ha a good projectile in neutral-b, and has solid recovery options in down-b, and side-b.
: has an amazing combo game, good kill moves, a good stalling move, a good anti-air move, and an amazing side-b to boot.
: Yeah I don't know why I put him so low.
: I just thought he had a better kit but after doing more online, yeah he doesn't, he is still third best though.
I just didn't notice these disadvantages playing him before.
: He's trash, inhale sucks, he wins against very few characters, but , , , and are worse then him, but he is trash.
: She has a great kit but I overrated her.

I kinda like yours. NOT! I don't.

Nice.

Now for the actual discussion
I generally agree with your tier list aside from Pac-man and Kirby.
He's extremely overwhelming if you let him camp with his fruit and hydrant. He's still not great but he's scary. Even just the cherry can go to good use and he can literally create a wall with his hydrant and up-b
I do agree that he is very bad, but not in the same tier as Naruto and Luffy. Bair is a great disjointed kill option and his suicide throws are a welcome option. Inhale can actually lead directly into a grab after swallowing. And the projectile from his up-b goes a lot farther than people think. Still not enough to call him good, but better than bottom 5.

Pac-Man,though has a terrible recovery and his wall can be easily broken, and his hydrant pushes him as well, making it worthless. He also can't kill because his only solid kill move is the key which will get him punished if he tries to get it. He only has one positive matchup against Luffy(also known as the worst character in the game)
Kirby, though only has one kill move, and it has high lag and misses often, and most of his moves are bad. His grabs are really bad and aren't good kill moves, as well as kirbycide being only useful when you are a stock ahead which is very uncommon, due to Kirby having one kill move which is Hammer which is garbage, and he has very few positive matchups, being Pac-Man, Luffy, Naruto, and Luigi.

black mage is awsome

But kirby can kill with his bair too and his smash attacks. His bair is hella good as it is disjointed.

What world do you live in where pac-man has a bad recovery? Also his hydrant is not useless it's one of his best tools. Dropping directly on a trampoline or trampolining next to it is very safe and useful. Nair is a good kill option, too.

Pac-Man's recovery is the worst in the game because... uh... UH... Because Pac-Man is Poopy!!!

So, a few explanations within the tiers:

S Tier: would normally have been here on his own, however, I felt that is currently just way too strong to be in A tier. Giving Tails and Samus their own tiers seemed a bit much so I merged them into one tier.

A Tier: , and are all around extremely solid characters as they often have extremely powerful aspects of their gameplan ( 's everything, 's neutral, punish and strength without port, 's punish game). 's the sort of 9b Fox of the tier in that he's still incredible, but considerably more honest than the top 5, whereas , , and are all just incredibly solid characters all around. I finished the tier off with and as I currently feel that they're the two most solid contenders for 10th place due to 's extremely solid all around nature as a character, good frame data and good combo game, and 's excellent neutral and punish game offset by only a terrible disadvantage. Outside of the last two, this tier feels pretty self-explanatory.

B Tier: This tier is again for the most part, pretty self explanatory. All of these characters are just remarkably solid with minor flaws holding them back. is an extremely well rounded character pretty much only offset by his weakness to some swordies; has an amazing punish tool in his chaingrab at the cost of having a relatively mediocre offstage game; is another well-rounded character who suffers from poor frame data and having a poor disadvantage state; is an underrated character who really only suffers from having poor matchups vs sword characters but outside of that thrives really well; has an incredibly safe offstage and a good neutral mostly offset by his mediocre close-range game; is just a remarkably well rounded character who suffers from a poor disadvantage state; is a precise zoner with the ability to force 50/50s whenever he's onstage and a good punish game with chaingrabs and bomb setups at the cost of having pretty much no recovery whatsoever; has good setups with Din's Fire and some monstrous normals but is held back by her slow speed; and is a light glass cannon who has a decent punish game and a good offstage and neutral with port-Inhale that allows him to screw over many characters who struggle to approach but mostly suffers from dying really early and struggling vs zoners and sword characters. As for , well, I'll get to him later...

PAC-MAN: The TL;DR is that he's slap bang in the middle of the cast as the second-worst high tier because whilst he's unbelievably oppressive if he's allowed to setup his glitches; anyone who knows the matchup and all of it's counterplay will utterly annihilate him. Kyoz is literally the main reason this character is here because he finds all kinds of cool s*** and keeps it hidden so people can't lab it.

C Tier: This tier can't really solo-compete on it's own very well. suffers from being light and from losing to port; but is still very fast and has a solid neutral game; is well rounded but too honest as a lot of the dedicated zoning and sword characters can do those specific things better; is an amazing secondary and can still hold his own against many characters but his low damage output and reliance on multihits hurts him in the long run as well; has a really good punish game and an amazing combo throw; but suffers from being slow and heavy and having a terrible neutral due to his short range and the aforementioned factors; is well rounded but mediocre and has some pretty poor normals despite her relative long range and disjoints; has overall good traits but suffers hard from having a lack of good true combos and kill setups which has led a lot of players to drop her; has godawful frame data and a bad recovery; but a good spacing and combo game (surprisingly) and has a monstrous punish game but a really bad everything else really.

D Tier: Barely solo-viable really. Shame. is effectively in the same boat as except with worse mobility at the cost of a decently consistent grab confirm and a better offstage; whilst also doing incredibly well with port; combines the worst part of 's lower range and 's awful mobility along with lighter weight, poor zoning and just being completely outclassed by every other character that fills it's niche as a midrange zoner; struggles to kill and suffers from the biggest weakness to port ever, as he has the worst neutral in the game when he doesn't have it; is a generally bad character who can't abuse his mobility effectively, however he does have tools like Homing Attack, Nair and Fair to help him; has light weight, poor killpower, and mediocre in almost every aspect except recovery; has poor range, dies early to everything and has a surprisingly bad offstage game despite it's air speed (which got nerfed) and decent aerials.

E Tier: LMAO. and just get unbelivably outclassed by every other character in their archetypes and suffer from some crippling flaws in this meta (in 's case, he has a bad moveset that doesn't entirely work, whereas genuinely excels at nothing and has no range); 's entire moveset does not work, he has no recovery and no combo game, and if he didn't have disjoints, he'd be the worst in the game; just has no range, no neutral, a mediocre punish, a predictable offstage and just all the traits that hurt a character in this meta.



Get mad.

Ohh boy this isn't that good. first S and A tier are fine. But B tier is pretty good, but why are Pac-Man and Kirby here, I would say to switch Pac-Man with Bandana Dee, and Kirby should be a low tier. C tier is fine, D and E tiers are the worst ones, Pit, Black Mage, and Bandana Dee are too low. Sonic and Luffy are wayyy too, they should be switched with Black Mage and Pit, I mean, Luffy should be the worst, Luigi is bad , but Luffy has bad everything.

Alright lemme go put my thoughts:

Of Course the "Pac Placement": Kyoz I feel like makes Pac-Man not bottom 10 at the moment, but I don't think he alone makes Pac-Man go up on the tier list by much due to SSF2's low amount of playerbase and also due to the fact that Results simply just matter less and less in a game like SSF2 unless a player demonstrates the viability of a character's tool kit, but it's no suprise that not a single top level players knows the pac mu (I mean they still think Keychain is overpowered and constantly complain about it and use it as a reason to ban pac outside of desyncs and to place him in f**king top 5). While Pac-Man has a couple of scary things, he's actually a very below average character once you look past that. I mostly will cover this in a 40 page pac essay that I will be sending to you soon Strife but let me go ahead and talk about my points and why I still haven't jumped on board the "Pac is a very good character" train.

Pac-Man does have setups like Key-Chain still (Even when you get the setup properly it honestly isn't that good given how you can easily shield the key hitbox to force pac-man to refresh and hit pac-man when he receives cooldown from using hydrants to knock the key out of pac-man's hands which for some reason people don't know is a proper strategy along with abusing i-frames when you die if pac-man sets it up during a star KO which is the only way pac-man can get the glitch going when against a competent player), Hydraline (Hydrant + Trampoline) of course (Reliable and just great at covering certain amounts of space and great for ledge trapping, but honestly just being patient with 99% of chars or using disjoints against the hydraline should work properly), and more. Pac-Man does have the setups, but learning to respect his setups and not challenge it is something that a lot of people actually forget and hence is why a lot of people get punished over setups way more than they should. Giving a character a higher tier placement JUST because top level players don't have matchup experience on the character eventhough there has always been a method to not only make pac-man less threatening, but also just not that good outside of setups (Will get back to that in the next paragraph) is just giving him WAY too much credit just because everyone bandwagons on pac-man being high tier.

Pac-Man is a character that has a ton of below average attributes. He has mediocre mobility, stubby range outside of fruits, only one/two good normal/s (N-Air and probably D-tilt or Up-Air but honestly Up-Air is kinda overrated), no kill power outside of hydrant (Really risky) or sweetspot nair (Hard to hit with given how the hitbox is very small and is only found on the first frame of the hitbox along with staling being a thing since honestly most pac-man's use N-Air a lot, especially at low percents), and potentially his back-throw which is a pretty bad kill throw, and pac-man without long setups lacks a lot in punish game. Pac-Man has an overall bad close range game because of his underwhelming normals while he can't play aggressively due to his mobility issues despite his decent frame data making him a still safe character, yet he's a character who has close-ranged normals. This forces Pac-Man to constantly play at far range with fruits and hydrants and they aren't generally reliably fast enough to CONSTANTLY keep opponents away and once the opponent really gets in Pac-Man he can't really get out due to his mediocre mobility when against faster characters while he gets completely walled out by most swordfighters WHILE most swordfighters are great against fighting Fruits and Hydrants in general. I mean Pac-Man still has good frame data and one of the best OoS in the game along with a pretty good N-Air, but those are his only strengths without fruits/hydrants and overall without those two tools Pac-Man would easily be bottom 3. However that isn't really the case, however Fruits and ESPECIALLY Hydrants aren't good enough to really have Pac-Man thrive in the metagame where people actually know the matchup. Also not to forget Pac-Man's matchup spread which is A LOT worse than many would think. While Pac-Man does have decent/niche matchups against the spacies due to their high startup recoveries and fact that Pac-Man can actually kill them properly, many characters don't actually have much of a problem when against pac-man if the opponent knows the matchup. Captain Falcon vs Pac-Man is not nearly as good as many would believe due to Falcon being fast enough to force Pac-Man to always play close range making it hard for Pac-Man to get Falcon offstage along with recovering under with Falcon being a usually viable option to avoid getting edge guarded by fruits. Donkey Kong vs Pac-Man is definitely a losing matchup for Pac-Man as eventhough Donkey Kong can theoretically get walled out by Pac-Man at times, Donkey Kong is a very hard character to actually edge guard due to his 1 frame ledge snap on his recovery and Donkey Kong's ability to just 0 to death pac-man at any given moment is kind of a big issue especially since Pac-Man struggles to kill Donkey Kong while also not really having a good enough punish game to really be threatening towards Donkey Kong. Ness even is an auto-lose matchup due to Ness's ability to ignore fruits/hydrants with down-special forcing pac-man to approach while autowinning neutral with his disjoints and superior punish game along with Ness's down-b being jump cancellable meaning that there is no risk for using down-b at all and it makes mixing up with fruits and hydrants when Ness doesn't use Down-Special significantly harder. Pac-Man also has a lot of other matchups that a lot of people think that Pac does okay against but he actually doesn't but that's for another day. Also note that outside of the jacket glitches Kyoz discovered, he hasn't really discovered anything else that mindblowing or really anything that useful ever since he left temporarily in December, and basing tier lists off of hidden potential is not really a good way to create a tier list.

I mean if you'd like, I'd be more than happy with doing a live debate with you or one of the backroom members that finds Pac-Man to be high tier. However I'd VERY much advise you and the other BackRoom Members to actually read the things I have to say about pac-man instead of constantly ignoring it and counting it as "Well Playridise is a stubborn git so obviously he doesn't have any real points towards why pac-man is good so he's obviously clutching at straws" mostly a problem with certain Backroom members (Not all, and I wouldn't say that you are one of those peoples who don't listen to me but I still want you to look at this mini-essay and really consider pac-man's placement after reading it).

Anyways, for the other Placements:

Kirby: While Kirby isn't an awful character, he's still a pretty overrated character imo. As cancerous as port kirby actually is, I find Port Priority to actually hurt kirby a lot more than harm making Kirby only a niche when you have port in a tournament setting. I mean Kirby with port is High tier obviously, however without port Kirby honestly really struggles. Kirby being a light character with not very good range practically means that losing trades can cost kirby his own life as Kirby becomes a super risky character especially without port. Kirby doesn't really have a particularly good way of getting a good hit despite his great punish game (Again, especially without port) which overall can render Kirby a bit inconsistent at times. I'm not really going to say much for Kirby but essentially he's a low tier character without port, a high tier with port rendering him as a mid tier. Also note that outside of Donkey Kong and maybe the Spacies/Falcon, Kirby struggles a lot versus most of the high/top tiers anyways, again especially without port but either way Kirby is too inconsistent to really be a great high tier character overall.

Pikachu: PIkachu is really underrated in my opinion, like top 15 underrated. Pikachu's weight is his only big downfall, however it actually helps him in certain matchups such as Marth where Marthiritis really becomes an issue (Many top level players from what I remembered called this matchup even for Pikachu so great I guess...). Pikachu actually doesn't struggle that much in port due to his tail being almost completely disjointed (Sometimes its a small rectangle but his tail for the most part is disjointed in a way where Tails's tails are disjointed but Pikachu's hurtbox is a bit more reasonable). Pikachu is still a character with a great neutral and he has one of the fastest dash speeds in the game with dash cancelling along with good air speed making it easy for Pikachu to position himself constantly while also having extremely good frame data and landing options which in combination with Pikachu's fast mobility, short hurtbox, and semi-disjointed range makes it extremely hard to get a good hit on Pikachu while he is light enough to not get comboed too hard when he does. Pikachu also has a fantastic combo game once he does get the hit (He usually does anyways given his great neutral) thanks to his strings of fast moves along with his decent ability to frame trap thanks to his frame data and mobility. Pikachu also has of course a great recovery and one of the best edge guarding tools in the game (Thunder). Also Pikachu might struggle to kill occasionally, but his punish game, neutral game, and more heavily make up for it.

Zero Suit Samus: Why... is she up there? Zero Suit Samus along with maybe Sandbag has undisputably the worst recovery in the game, her tether distance is poor while it has a ton of glitches such as being unable to recover when under the stage which makes it easy for Zero Suit Samus to die easily offstage along with ledge hogging really ruining her recovery even with Down-Special mixups. Zero Suit Samus may have N-Air (her only good normal and it has range, it's a fantastic move and it combos into a lot of things and makes her neutral actually good) but it honestly isn't much of a redeeming factor if most of her other normals are pretty below average. Zero Suit Samus despite having some neat combo strings also struggles to kill making it hard for Zero Suit Samus to close the gap when she's at a disadvantage which is pretty common given her recovery. Definitely switch her and Bandana Dee. Bandana Dee may be as bland as my neutral game and fundamentals, but I don't think Bandana Dee has anything inherently awful outside of his lightweight. Also you must be high or something to put Zero Suit Samus above Isaac, Sheik, G&W, and Bandana Dee.

These are the most questioning placements to me. While there are a lot of placements I heavily disagree with such as Luigi not being in his own tier in badness, Meta Knight being a bit too low, Isaac being just a tad bit too low, Bandana Dee being too low, Sheik being too low, Zelda being too high, G&W being too low, and more issues like that, I am just too tired to go on. The tier list is alright outside of those placements I mentioned, but because some of those placements are so ridiculously absurd, it's definitely a below average tier list in my opinion, but significantly better than most of the top level player's tier lists (They may be good at the game, but good god do some of them have wack af opinions).

Here's my new tier list btw:

Hello everyone! As I personnally disagree with some points of the official tier list, here's mine with some explanations for the characters that are far away from their positions in the official one. It's not about how good or bad I play them but how much are they viable in a competitive match from my point of view. I'm not a pro so it's not the most trustable tier list and if someone wants to share his opinion on it, I'm ready to talk!
https://imgur.com/G7SztLf

S: The top of the top, they are really good at making or getting out of combos and have a very good moveset and some good advanced technics
A: Really good moveset and stats, some even have chain grabs. Few flaws however but almost nothing bad about them
B: Very good characters with some sharp movesets, able to make solid results but not the bests
C: Some flaws holding them from being higher but still absolutely decent. Some have potential and can be insane when well mastered
D: Their unique fight styles make them hard to master and having solid results with. However, they have a strong potential in the right hands
E: Not that bad but their main weaknesses lead them to the bottom tier.

If Sheik is that high it's mostly because of her mobility and her side b. I find her very underrated but perhaps I'm overestimating her, that's possible
I find Fox slightly better than Falco (even if Falco's ma boi) coz of his chain grab and his ground speed and freefall speed, however i admit that any out of stage mistake is very strongly punished
What makes Ness that good in my opinion is his grab : long range, various combo starter, chain grabs... Porbably the best grab in the game in my opinion. Also, his f-smash is really useful due to its strengh and reflecting ability
Peach is very powerful when her projectile is in good hands and she has one of the best aerial game of the entire cast in my opinion (not the best though)
The main weakness of Zelda is that her mistakes are very strongly punished but when well mastered she's a nightmare (one of the best jabs, a great aerial game, good recovery, reflector also effective as an offensive move...)
Maybe I underestimate DK a little bit but what makes me holding him from being higher is mainly his vertical recovery (one of the worst) and his size making him an easy combo target, and a character pretty easy to kill with his predictable recovery. He's really good though due to a really good grab and his physical strengh
Link's items make him without doubts one of the best camper of the game but he also has a very agressive aerial style and a good recovery. However I find him a little bit overrated as he's pretty predictable on the ground and once offstage he's easy to edge guard
ZSS is in my opinion very underrated because she's weird : bad grab but good throws, very good in the air but her recovery sucks and her down b is more a "getting out of combo" move than an agressive one and her side b is pretty useless. However her neutral b is much better than in Sm4sh and far more useful especially at high percents. I don't know if I'm right but I see a really strong potential in her. Gotta see what's coming in the future...
I think that Black Mage is very underrated. Yes his up b is easy to counter, yes his side b hard to use, yes he's slow and light but he has a very various moveset and one of the best neutral b in the game and his down b is very useful in the air. He also has some of the best throws and a dair and bair absolutely terrible at mid or more percent.
Very underrated in my opinion. His latency is his main flaw but as it can be balanced with a single jump then chained with one of the beust aerial combo game, it's not a true problem. His recovery is rigid but stays decent and he has a really good edge guard game. True potential, I tell you, true potential...
The most huge gap between my TL and the official one. I find him very overrated as a lot of his moves are easy to punish and his recovery is pretty bad. He has a really good aerial game but lacks of options on the ground.
That's a particular thing there. Those three have a common thing, they have a really unique fight style. When well mastered, they can cause disasters but they all three have a main issue depending on the matchup and how the opponent hands the situation. Megaman is very good at making combos but very easy to combo, Chibi Robo is a champion at holding the opponent far and playing with him but at a closer level he's dominated, and a Bomberman will win if he's able to "control" the stage but with a good agressive opponent he will have some problems
Overrated : pretty good in the air but really bad on the ground, good combo game but easy to combo as a punching ball (hahahahaha), useless neutral b, bad grab and CAN'T GRAB THE LEDGES! However, yes he has a very good recovey, yes his side b is gold, yes he's pretty unpredictable but that's not enough.

Keep in mind that:
-it's only my opinion
-I finb the game well balanced, all the characters are viable but some are just better
-a good player will always win against a bad one, whoever they fight with

Bro, Luigi has ONE good atribute about him. His fireballs are pretty good, but that's it. He is besides that a horrible character with no combo ability.
Do you even play Lloyd, He has an decent recovery, an amazing ground game, a spammable projectile in demon fang, an amazing move in tempest, and a ton of other great stuff.
Chibi-Robo has a good close up game, and an amazing grab game. Mega Man, if you play him right should be controlling the stage with his wall of projectiles. And Bomberman has several kill options and has an infamous grab game.
Sandbag doesn't need to grab the ledges, he has a decent grab game, he is great on the ground if you soap, he can kill VERY early (40-60% range with up-B) and if you can DI you can survive his up-B at high percent. He also has one of the best punish and combo games in this game.
Zero Suit is bad because if she is knocked of stage there is basically no way to recover. Luffy can recover easier than her due to her completely relying on tether recoveries.
Black Mage has good grabs and neutral B, but that's it really.
Ness doesn't have the best grab game, Bomberman does. Ness suffers with recovery and is a solid midtier like Sora, is great on some attributes, but terrible on others.
Fox and Falco were fine.
Link is very hard to counter due to his projectile game, he also has an amazing kill option in the bomb arrow that can kill at 70%.
DK is designed to be on stage, and he can easily wreck on stage.
Zelda is a bit too high but she is fine.
Here is my tier list for you to bash.