But it would though the kicks are her main everything, y'all want an unneeded nerf to something that isn't even game breaking or meta damaging.

If anything they should just nerf Transform!1!1! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No way. Maybe Top 10, but not 5. She suffers to much in a match against to any character with superior mobility to her. She has a weak and predictable ability to approach. Effectively gaining a punish can be difficult. And she has few options from challenge other attacks from the air. The main thing she can do from there is throwout a Fair/Bair and hope that zealousness makes her opponent runs into it. But if they wait/bait an option from her, they can punish her. Lightning Kicks weakness is that, even on-hit, sour-spots are punishable. Not until about 70 percent do they become a decent point tool. I do think Lightning-Kick Bair could be nerfed to could KO at like 85%. But make Fair KO 95%. People do really need to learn how to space properly against Zelda. That's like the main reason why in early Melee's Meta, she was consider #6.

I don't think she's top 5, but I don't think the idea is absurd: I think she beats or goes even with Meta Knight, which few characters do, and as multiple other top- and high-tier matchups that are decent IMO (Pikachu, and Naruto), but as you said she does have some problems against characters with good aerial mobility and pressure, like Yoshi. You're definitely the Zelda expert here, but I think she's possible (if unlikely) top 5 and sure top 10.

the thing about CF is that his only good features are his combos into KOs and dashdancing/run speed. He has a large number of drawbacks to balance this out including a terrible recovery, bad range (outside of nair) and a fast fall speed.
Zelda has a large number of tools including an incredible recovery which is ungimpable (and can be used as a safe approach), a decent combo game, incredible kill power in every direction, a decent projectile, a reflector, and above average range. Her main drawback is her run speed, and a weakness to disjoints (although I think this is pretty fair considering her other strengths).
I would like upB to be punishable and fair/bair to be weaker, but apart from that I think she's well balanced.

I wouldn't call Falcon's recovery terrible. Look how far out I was able to go out for this kill without even using his dair > jump > upB recovery or even side B to get back.

It's not crazy good like BM, Pika, or Zelda's, but it's definitely serviceable considering Falcon is somewhat of a tank. This is by farrrrrr the best recovery he's ever had in a Smash game.

it has good range, but it's one of the most predictable recoveries in the game, and is very easy to gimp.
like it's a huge buff from other games but it's still pretty bad.

Just my 2 cents

Most slower characters are lower tier anyway; Kirby, Ness, Chibi, Peach, Wario, Mega Man, Jigglypuff, etc. So saying the "majority of the cast is vulnerable" isn't true nor say much when "the best characters have faster overall speed/offense like Melee."

Most people only look at Zelda's strength, and not her weaknesses. And they ignore her how good other characters truly are from focusing on her. Zelda suffers in match with characters that faster than her in general. Lloyd, Pikachu, Marth, Naruto, Meta Knight, Falcon, Link, Zamus; all outmaneuver her, having a better approach game and punish game against her. Each has a match-up advantage over her, whether be slight or large, and potentially place higher than her on a tier. She has too many losing match-up to be top-5.

Nair is a weak approach too, and you wouldn't want to approach from the ground as Zelda. Ground moves are for catching and predicting a punish. But like I said, people need to stop running into her moves.

Zelda's defensive-play also isn't that great. Not sure why people say that so much. Zelda playing at her best with defense can't even keep out herself playing offense in a mirror-match.



I'd go into more detail, but my internet browser seriously crashed right as I was about post a write up, exampling everything you asked in great detail.

I think you overlook the advantages Zelda has over other characters. She does well IMO against characters like Meta Knight and Pikachu that depend on gimps to kill, because her recovery is extremely difficult to edgeguard and usually requires at least a 50-50 guess and sometimes worse (on ToS or YS for example, she can often threaten going to a high platform and still be able to sweetspot if they commit). MK in particular I am convinced is even or good for Zelda.

Yeah I mean anyone who's played reimu knows that zelda can play the spacing game well to beat rushdown, and she has a projectile to force approaches. I think you're possibly overexaggurating zelda's bad matchup. Falcon vs. Zelda is certainly not in falcons favour imo, as zelda lives for a while due to being able to escape pressure easily due to a safe teleport, and a well spaced fair or bair beats falcons approaches anyway.

I like that Zelda can beat falcon in a smash game outside of PM.

Lol I remember when 9b first released and
everyone thought Zelda was mid tier at most

And now some people think she's top 5 and calling for nerfs. And some think she's okay and should be left alone.

I think the devs did a really good job rebalancing her and can't wait to see how Zelda will fair in Beta.

I don't think I can bair it, honestly

don't you dair try and get a pun thread started

I think most players underrated their mains.

Zelda's honestly not far from top 5. I see her as at least top 10 in this version of the game thanks to her absurd power and good stage control. Zelda's approach is not that bad despite her poor mobility. Farore's Wind covers a lot of distance quickly and has a fair amount of priority on both hitboxes, making it great for getting out of sticky situations or getting in. Din's Fire is much more useful than it is in the other Smash games since it travels quickly, doesn't have much delay and benefits from the SSF2 stun system a lot.

Jab is good at stopping approaches from opposing characters and D-tilt ducks under some attacks while setting up combos into F-smash or U-tilt. There's also Naryu's Love for reflecting projectiles or causing some damage around Zelda, though it's not too reliable because of its lag. Zelda can also use the quick N-air at close range and Lightning Kicks to intimidate opponents and make them careful about approaching.

So on top of being decent in neutral, Zelda in advantage is one of the scariest things in this game. She has one of the best grab games in SSF2 with B-throw being the strongest kill throw in the game along with Ness', D-throw reliably leading into B-air at most percents and U-tilt to B-air/U-air at low percents, and U-throw leading into U-air and lightning kicks at times. Her tilts are all great combo set-ups and u-tilt and f-tilt even have kill potential (though her tilts are a tad slow). Her smashes are all great at killing and all of her aerials are dangerous killers aside from n-air obviously.

Zelda's edgeguarding is also surprisingly good thanks to the SSF2 hitstun. Din's Fire is now a reliable edgeguarding move since the opponent can't air dodge it so easily, Lightning Kicks kill offstage really easily and d-air meteor smashes or spikes at the sweetspot.

Zelda's problems lie at close range thanks to the slow speed of her tilts and jab and her large size. She does have options however in shield-grabbing, Farore's and d-tilt for characters that hit higher.

Zelda also struggles to get through some sword characters like Marth, Lloyd, Sora and Link, but they are definitely manageable matchups (especially since the latter three can be easily for her to gimp).

So with her assets and weaknesses in mind, I can definitely say that Zelda is top 10 in v.0.9b and possibly top 5. She is a really good character.

As for future changes to the character, I don't want her changed much at all tbh since I love this incarnation of her, but I wouldn't be opposed to Shine!'s idea of balancing the power between f-air and b-air. Pretty much everything else about Zelda is perfect and balanced as is.