I have mained Lloyd since 0.6a. I think by now I'd have the hang of his recovery.
As this so rightly stated:


Also, Fix your grammar Jammy.

maining a character for a long time doesn't make you good with them, just saying.
well done for explaining your point tho, even though it wasn't your own explanation.
*claps*


lol
no.

Imo Rising Falcon wasn't really needed THAT much as a recovery, but it still worked out as a little help, even when it was situational (Landing with Rising Falcon is pretty safe because of the hitbox and post-no landing lag, you could even sometimes answer your opponents if he was trying of punish you), but if it is for a kill move, I'm all happy for the change

Hahahahhahahaha!
Ok, lol. Tablet keyboard

I figured I didn't need to add anything to an already excellent explanation. Still, if Lloyd needed a nerf to his neutral game, they would be more likely to nerf that rather than an already prominent con.

Also, D-Air could be easily punished due to the fact it had pretty high startup and Lloyd even announced that. It did a poor job meteor smashing opponents and generally hadn't got the tools to combat edgeguarders. Tiger Blade had a meteor smash, admittedly one that made you go straight downwards, before 0.8 which actually gave him a decent combo tool.

If it's for a kill move, then that isn't too bad, but Lloyd has got a good set of kill moves already. I don't think killing is his biggest problem. His recovery though:
Rising Falcon does not allow you to loop with it. That was a bug
Similarly, Rising Falcon only allows you to effectively recover if you are knocked diagonally upwards, as most times, Tiger Blade will not be able to carry you upwards enough to keep you alive.

Lloyd did not need a nerf to recovery.



True, but it gives me a decent shot at it. I've had a pretty good grasp of the character for a while.
Also this is coming from a guy who in a backroom application openly stated he wouldn't answer Phoenix Wright's questions because they "required too much thought".
Before you start calling people up on their abilities with a character, prove your own.
Another question, have you ever played as Lloyd as a main or secondary?
If not, why are you even here?

NB - Someone make a seperate debate thread for this.

you writing a biography about me or something? you seem to know a lot about my posts.
stalking my BR application jeez.

the problem isn't with dair's offensive capabilities, as that adds some depth and skill due to having to autocancel correctly.

if you DI correctly most of the time you will be able to recover with rising falcon + tiger blade, as moves that send you offstage are mostly angled horizontally or diagonally upwards.
this is a strong recovery as you can use it in most offstage recoveries, it covers a decent horizontal distance and is hard to challenge due to the long lasting, high priority hitboxes on each move.

I'm basically trying to say that characters can be balanced by nerfing one aspect while keeping another strong. take melee falco, who has amazing on stage pressure and combos, but has a very poor recovery to compensate. although falco is still one of the best characters in the game, the basic premise is there.

I 'secondaried' lloyd for a week or so but was never that great. most of my opinions on the character are formed from playing against Lunary's lloyd.

Nah, I'm not stalking your posts, I just noticed how bad that response was whilst looming at responses to see what makes a successful app.

I'd say try and play more as Lloyd, make sure you know actually how to play as him, because impressions on a week and Lunary's Lloyd (who I now really wanna play against) is not a good thing to go on alone.

Anyway, I'm done debating Lloyd extensively, nice to hear your view that managed to kickstart a debate. I honestly don't care anymore. I'll be happy to start this up again when 0.9c is released. PM after you have played as Lloyd some more and I'll talk about it some more. Right now I can't be bothered and I'd rather just play the game.

Well, when it comes to D-Air, I mostly use it for recovery. Maybe here and there, I use it offensively. If I miss, I'm already dodging out of the way, regardless of end lag.

The thing about D-Air is that you need to watch your opponent's angle and time the move well. It takes practice to predict when to use it.

It really was. Especially since 9b release when they changed the consecutive up b's possible from 2 to 1. He has ultimately no recovery.



I agree. Mained Lloyd since Flash 1. I still get my behind handed to me from time to time.



Exactly. IMO there was nothing wrong with his D Air and taking it away was totally unnecessary. The only way to compensate for it is to buff the height of his Up B.

Also when you guys quote, can you quote specific things please? It's a pain to scroll down massive quote threads.

Apologies

no pun intended but lloyd has combos for days, i don't think having a comparatively bad recovery will kill you, it just means you need to put in more work onstage.

To be fair his weight is slightly below average, so in the event that you do end up getting knocked off stage, I don't think 1 Up B will do you much good mid/late stock.

Lloyd can avoid ending lag on any of his air attacks straight after up-b, i find the most useful with d-air, he can also do a full double jump and d-air to avoid landing lag, it's great for combos, especially if you use the first method
Here's a few videos on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxPuDncNt0Q&list=UUw7JjyIMDwdzsJUfUoH-7ig&index=7 (with my commentary and terrible organisation and high pitched voice)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKadfEy7SiI&list=UUw7JjyIMDwdzsJUfUoH-7ig (Combo)

Tiger Blade Cancel into lagless airial is well known by now. Sorry, but youre late Still useful though.

oh, well...um
i find d-throw to double demon fang pretty useful
but of course
u-throw to u-air (or u-tilt on heavier chars/0%) even though AI use that

All very well known basics haha .

Here's something you can try though; try dash hop > n-air and timing it into an immediate grab. It doesn't work all the time but it's very useful for aggressive play for when you want to skip frames.