Yeah I bet Falcon dominates the neutral and Kirby will have a hard time getting edgeguards started, but he can edgeguard easily with bair. I bet if Kirby gets above Falcon he will have a hard time getting through Falcon's uair.

Idk knee and nair seem to always whiff and go above a grounded kirby, which is really annoying in neutral
also what can falcon do about dash attack, none of his moves beat it and it has no endlag iirc
Kirby can also jank falcon out with random inhale s*** and shorthop hammers (sh hammer is actually really quick) into edgeguards
Falcon can't really combo kirby and landing kill moves is hard if the kirby DIs up and in on throws, you gotta rely on random fsmash/utilt otherwise
edgeguarding also seems really free for kirby as he can just bair yo s*** 3 times and you die lol
its a bit like the puff matchup but kirby is slightly worse in exchange for being f*** annoying and having more jank lmao

CF has to play pretty lame imo, but if Kirby DI's in on dthrow that is a knee (but getting the grab :/ , maybe you just gotta bait something out of Kirby by abusing your vastly better movement options).

If kirby DIs up and in they will just go high straight above you which wont connect with knee at higher percents
I think fthrow is good vs floaties and its the only time I'll really use it since uairs far offstage after an fthrow kills quite early

Approaching with or Ftilt or Dtilt is killer against Kirby. Very fast, long-range move, that Kirby can't short-hop over. Utilt is another strong tool, because Kirby can't approach quickly without using full-jumps.

Falcon can definitely beat Kirby. He doesn't have pull off Zero-to-Death combos to win like against other character. Any 2 or 3 hit-string from Falcon is going to be cancerous for Kirby since he can die in this match-up as early as 70%. Falcon can honestly can just: dashdance, grab, throw, runaway, dashdance, grab, throw, runaway, repeat. As Kirby, punishing those type of simple patterns is not easy.

To bring a different topic, Im praying for the day I can use UTilt/Grab out of Jab. Kinda sucks to get them in the perfect position after getting a string and not being able to continue because the Grab/Tilt input counts as another jab...

This thread is waaaay down... Time to change that

Any tips on the vs. MU? Kirby has less range, worse neutral, worse mobility, worse KO options... Edgeguarding might be in his favour, but its often enough for Marth to just throw out an FSmash before you can grab the ledge. Not saying its unavoidable, but definetly annoying. Kirby cant get a safe Inhale because Marth can Fair him while hes getting sucked up, and even if you get it, Fair punishes you for getting Inhale if you dont immediatly throw out your shield, which is nonsense and makes Inhale -> USmash or Inhale -> UTilt -> String completely useless. And lets say you get the Inhale without getting punished, Shield Breaker isnt really that useful in that MU anyway. People (Ok, only one guy so far) complain that I rely on jank in that MU, but thats because I honestly have no idea how to fare against a decent Marth as Kirby otherwise. In the Link MU you can at least get arrows which makes it somewhat easier, but the Marth MU seems tied with Lloyd for Kirbys worst MU (at least in my opinion).

I rarely ever tread into this MU as Chu Kirby, mainly because you have to literally ride up the ledge each time so you don't take an FSmash to the face.The best you could do is FoP him with Bair, but he can still get out of it.

How do I FoP a char with higher range and priority? Marths moves beat most of what Kirby has and go farther, so this is really tricky to even create that situation. And how do I get him to the FoP position? Even if I get a succesful bait and react accordingly, Marth is capable of countering my assault/retreating completely unless its FSmash. Definetly not what Kirby needs to set up edgeguards or something.

Kirby still has a strong punish-game and Marth being light-weighted makes it dangerous when Kirby's gets into his inside space.

The main thing is really just being as patient as heavenly possible. You have to bait Marth into several situations. So on the the ground, dashdance at a mid-range. In the air, multi-jump from a diagonal angle from his ground positions. Along as you maintain a good distance outside his range, Marth has to commit to something in most situations to hit you, due to the lack of a projectile. You really have to wait for those moments and punish hard with

- Usmash > Usmash > Uair > Fair (55%) is still an easy BnB at 10% or less.
- Landing-Uair > Hammer is a combo and the DI is pretty easy to follow. It's a good DI mix-up as well.
- Dtilt is a good poke-tool to harass Marth on the ground. It's long and fast, so even when Marth has already begun many of his attacks, you can still hit him first. Only that his Dtilt beats Kirby's.
- From mid-range, a retreating Final Cutter is really safe. It's a good move to get damage make an opponent approach when you're too scared to.

I think Inhale is very situational against good players and a lot of characters can punish you for Shallowing. I would spit in Final Cutter, or shield-bait. People always seem to be mashing to get out and looking to retaliate immediately when Inhaled. Spit can be the way to get your damage and push them away from you so things are back to neutral.

Essentially, my advice is to realize that Marth has two main advantages: being able to hurt you off of grabs and neutral setups (unlike Fox who can just throw you to the heavens and sit there), and being able to stuff your aerials. Just realize that Marth wants you to be predictable and run at him with bair so he can bair, fair, nair, uair, fsmash, or utilt you into damage. Stay right outside tipper range, realize that run in shield is a good mixup and can lead to usmash and other BnB's, and use moves like Inhale and Final Cutter that can beat swords will. Also, realize that Marths will often get complacent with their range and start using laggier moves like fsmash or ftilt, so realize that and stay in close enough range to get what you need. DA can be easily shieldgrabbed IRC, and I would avoid getting grabbed by Marth due to how well fthrow and dthrow can get damage and kill floaties. Even fthrow -> Dancing Blade is essentially half of what Marth needs to start looking for kills.

Sounds good enough, thanks! Totally not a late response at all

To bring in yet another topic, I made another changelist similar to what I did with Ness. Feel free to discuss:

+ Small mobility buff (aka slightly higher ground and air speed)
+ A tad more ranhe. Nothing much, just a small bit.
+ Grounded Hammer has Armor, making it easier to techchase with it or punish rolls.
+ Nair deals 2% more damage
+ FSmash is back to its old version where it went farther
+ Dair has a bit more KB and scales better.
+ UThrow now is a fully fledged KO throw, reliable killing Mario at ~110% on 3DS.
+ Both Swallow and Spit have more hitstun to avoid getting punished for getting the Inhale.
+ More Taunts.
+ Techrolls actually bring you somewhere.
+ Stone has super armor during startup as well. Also, Landmaster and Majora's Moon can kill at 110%/80% respectively.
+ Chomp animation (both with and without a victim) gets fixed.

= FThrow and BThrow dont Kirbycide anymore, rather a star pops up under Kirby after bwing 2 Marth heights under his starting point to set up edgeguards. Check Code and Fed's idea somewhere earlier in this thread for reference.

- Dair has 2 more startup and ending frames and deals 2% less damage as well.
- Fair deals 2% less damage.
- DThrow deals 2% less damage.
- Normal rolls cover 10% less distance.
- Hammer has 4 more lag frames both on the ground and in the air after usage.
- Stone has 5 additional frames of lag before and after execution.
- Dash Attack deals 2% less damage and has 3 more frames of ending lag.
- Final Cutter has slightly nerfed priority.


What do you guys think? It may look kinda rushed/weird/bad, but thats how Id change Kirby for Beta, go blame me.

There's some reasoning that I don't understand. How does giving grounded hammer armour make it a better tool for tech chasing or roll reading? Is it just intended to take the hit if they throw something out after you guess/react correctly but execute too late?

Ehhh, I got a bit confused there^^ I thought PMs Kirby had Armor on Hammer, so I thought having it here as well would be neat. Buuuuuut I mixed it up with Stone, so nevermind But I still think its worth a thought I also thought of letting Kirby cancel his Jab into a Tilt/Grab properly (thats for all chars then tho)and (now its getting dumb) maybe even replacing FSmash with Melee Dash Attack (Fireball) with adjusted KB and stuff, but I guess thats kinda stupid. But is the other stuff not even worth a saying something about it or did that just come to your eye?

For all people who replie that Kirby needs to inhale Final Forms. Please stop replying that. developers scrapped it, because they wanna to skip "cheapness" in that aspect (Something that doesn't have sense , because, Final Forms have infinitie jumps and no helpless, and that irritating SuperArmor over Super Saiyan Goku ).