How is fox better than sheik dafuq

Sheik's really grimy stuff (dthrow -> double fair to kill at 0) only works if you screw up DI or get stuck in a terrible position, whereas Fox's grimy stuff works on anyone. If you really get good DI on Sheik's throws, she has a much tougher time getting the crucial low kills she needs.

still think DK should be at least A+. rip me

I think Pikachu is so high because he has really good combos, and great recovery, fantastic kill power, and a solid projectile. He's kinda light though, and he's not exactly hard to combo either. (This is just from my experience of fighting Pikachu, don't shoot me)

Same. He's underrated imo.

I feel like DK does lose a bit of matchups, but he should still be higher up than he currently is. Very underrated as stated above. And Ichigo is a bit underrated as well imo, he does well vs quite a bit of the characters in the upper - top tiers.

This is a pretty good list overall.
I feel like DK and Naruto should be higher though (and I'm not sure why Sheik and Zelda are A+ rather than A but meh).
Also I feel like Marth and Pikachu should be flipped around but that's just me.

Sheik could very much be A+ tier. Fair and setups into it are just too good. She does well against Zamus and Lloyd. Possibly beat Marth. She chain-grabs and juggles on Fox, DK, and Bomberman. I think it's just that she has a few weird MU's, like Kirby and Jiggz, were she potentially loses because it's tough to get solid hits on them. But she's definitely top-tier against other top-tiers.

Zelda is more somewhere at 10th-11h, not because of weaknesses, but just everyone in those spot above her are solidly better than her and beat her in match-ups. In-comparison to potential at high-level, she's like Melee-Peach. But she's Melee-Peach in a game where there's 3 Marths, 3 Fox-speed Furries, with Brawl Meta Knight, Zamus, and some fast, untouchable version of Snake. She's can't kept up with a meta that highly rewards speed like that. I won't denied that everyone below her is a pool of 70-30 match-ups. She can worry the least about low-tier jank because her follow-up from throws into overdone knockback moves. And the low-tier neutral-game is much slower, where she can easily strive over all of them (except Mario).

You seem to underestimate Zelda. Yes, she is a character with low mobility where speed is prominent. But all her other things make up for that easily. Her teleport has a great range, and makes it hard to gimp her. It also serves as one of the annoying mixup tools. Her hitboxes are absolutely absurd and many are stupidly disjointed (if you really want to, I believe D. Ermac has pics of her hitboxes so you can ask him). Nair is ridiculous (even ask our friendly neighbordhood tson). Her punish game is one of the simplest yet most powerful in the game. Almost every move can lead into a kill setup. Din's fire takes lots of accuracy but can prove to be one of the better zoning/mindgame tools in the game which helps her neutral by a lot. She has the most killmoves out of the entire roster, tied with DK. Dsmash is one of the best killmoves in the game due to it coming out extremely fast and having disjointed range. Not to mention its high amount of shield stun (I was able to break doqk's shield just by spamming dsmash while he was stuck in stun)

I can honestly keep going on cuz theres still a lot I failed to mention. It doesn't matter if characters like Fox and Pika have better mobility options. Zelda can literally just throw out moves like sh-away bair/fair or nair and thats more than enough to stop most approaches and not get punished for it if you whiff a move. The only MUs I see her losing in the top-tier area I see are Marth Lloyd Zss and BBM. Theres no way Zelda is 10th - 11th.

EDIT: As for Sheik, she does better against ZSS and Lloyd then most characters I will agree (I dont think she beats them but I can see her being even with them). She solidly beats Marth (lots of experience and analysis from both sides of that MU). Despite having a chaingrab on DK and BBM, she still loses those MUs as well. She beats both Kirby and Jiggs. Just wanted to give my input on the characters you mentioned since I have spent quite a huge amount of time with Sheik. Other than that, I agree with you. Her spot in A+ is justified.

imo Sheik is either at the bottom of A+ tier or the top of A tier. I still think Zelda should be higher than Sheik by at least a spot or two.

And that's where I disagree because the aspect you mentions are still example of people playing neutral against her incorrectly, not camping and or committing to playing hit&run against her. I've seen her hitboxes and frame-data. But putting those in o prospective, and very easy for a character with higher mobility to take advantage of. I've already expressed on the first post of the topic that her exploitable weaknesses aren't something people take fully advantage of.

For one, you don't have to gimp her. Yes, gimps are a great way to maintain/extend, but aren't necessary and always defining to the match-up. Being safe, minimizing your opponents ability to gain traction in the match. This is what faster characters can do effectively against her. They weaken her fundamental ability to play safe, controlling space, ability to confidently approach. Every character has a safe-zone/range, that if you maintain that distance in neutral, you can react to whatever option your opponent chooses in the moment and Zelda's isn't good as covering that occupied zone against faster characters. She has to commit to the opposition or defend when they are also better at mix-up their approach options. The one major error I consistently see players do when I watch a vs. Zelda match is make poor judgement on when to move in on her. They just don't choose their moments correctly and they keep fighting her like she will falter to rushdown like most other characters, that's when they get kicked in the face. And statements like "Zelda can literally just throw out moves like SH-away Bair/Fair or Nair and that's more than enough to stop most approaches. . . ", emphasize that fact of people not approaching wisely with awareness. That's sounds like year-one of Melee talk.

I not saying she's that bad, but I rarely see good examples of play that deal with Zelda correctly in neutral; with proper patience and decision making of when to approach her. She an underused character and there substantial amount of inexperience on how to fight her. But again, that the learning curving is a higher than learning to most defeat other characters. But at high skill-level, Zelda is a bit short of top-10, or at the bottom of it. Not bad, very viable against them, but not their level of what she could achieve in a tournament setting. Big disjoints, high kill potential, and punish game are all great strength, but they don't completely nullified or allow ignorance her exploitable weakness that the top character have good tool. It's how her abilities can be utilized, not in the ease her feats can accomplish. They are more underestimated than Zelda is overestimated. Pikachu can beat her. Fox MU is stage depended but equal overall at high-level. And Naruto can play the safe game, with stage control and runaway to limit her options.

You can jump of shield. Dsmash doesn't that much frame-data to lock a player in shield. The hell is wrong with you, Doq? Most of her moves put her at disadvantage on blocks, even Lightning-Kicks. Shield pressure isn't Zelda's strong suit and she 's always punishable by an Out-of-Shield option if she attacks a shield with incorrect spacing.

If she doesn't loses to Kirby and Jigglypuff, it's solidly 50/50. Those two can just have the right moves and to deal with her approaching and multi-jump to safely go off-stage to gimp her, because Vanish route are a bit predictable and Bair ruins that for her. I still think Sheik is underrated with an underdeveloped punish game that could be further elaborated on. I'm skeptical whether or not she's beats Bomberman, but how can she not beat DK? That match-up feels significantly on her side. Confirms into Fair are very easy on him, Dash-Attack especially. You point him with needles when he's off-stage, focus him to aim at the ledge. Use Dtilt or Dash-Attack to point his recovery into Fair.

You make fair points, but I still stand by my case. I have many arguments toward your statements but because I feel like if I were to reply we'd just fill this thread with paragraphs upon paragraphs of Zelda discussion that isn't necessary. Although I don't necessarily agree with a lot of your statements, I'll respect them and still believe in mine. Plus I don't want to start any unnecessary beef or something as stupid as thoughts on a character.



The doqk was only an example of her strengths on shield. The point I was trying to make is that she is able to safely attack shield, granted it does take skill because her moves are easily punishable with bad spacing.



Upon re-evaluation, I can see Sheik vs Jiggs being even. However, I still believe Sheik beats Kirby. Kirby can struggle against needle camping, can get combo'd into fair (which kills even earlier) even with lightweight, and gets outmaneuvered by Sheik much too easily. Jiggs has tools to deal with Sheik approaching but Kirby really doesn't. Kirby's main strength is her ability to gimp Sheik, but even then I still dont think its that significant enough for Kirby to win. The BBM MU is entirely dependent on the playstyle of the BBM. If BBM doesn't play campy Sheik wins but if the BBM does its really difficult for Sheik, so BBM wins (just play joey lol). Confirms into fair are very easy on him, I agree, but the overall effectiveness of fair is hampered due to DK being heavy and living to high %'s to fair. Edgeguarding DK isn't as simple as that especially if the DK recovers low (and can mash special like crazy lmao). Needles are one of Sheik's best tools especially in this MU, but I don't think Sheik's easy fair confirms and needles are enough to win this MU when DK's long range, ridiculous punish game and armor (I know this sounds silly, but landing a fair only to have it be superarmor'd by Up+B/Giant Punch is really irritating. Though this could just be my salt speaking) just give Sheik too much trouble.

Hmmm... I would like to know, why did BM fell so much? I know that the characters isn't perfect, and yes, he has one character that helds him back really badly (Hello ), yet I don't see him being on so low on the overall list because he still has a pretty solid moveset, good priority and edgeguard options in the end.

In a way I think it is because of the lack of reps for BM that there are out there (I also dissapeared for a long while), but I would like to know the overall BR thoughts about him.

A large part of why he's lower is just that we've discovered things with other characters that caused them to rise above BM lol

Zelda, Sheik, and many others are seen as more potent characters so they kinda jumped from being below BM to being above, hence causing BM to get placed lower.

this is nice! I found the last Official Tier List was a bit... weird (Chibi, Samus and BBM) but now most of the problems are solved.