Eh. Maybe it's just the match up. I just feel like Tails takes the match up for the majority. His aerials are way to good for Lloyd. Also Lloyd's neutral special is canceled out by Tails neutral special. His down special is canceled out by Tails multiple hops. Tails just KO's Lloyd to early.

Pickachu and Tails are actually pretty even in my opinion. Tails down special and neutral special all destroy Pickachu's best approach option. (Neutral special.) There both also pretty even in regards to aerials. (Though I consider Tails to be slightly better in this regard.) The thing that Seals it for me is Tails superior recovery and edge guarding options.

If you play at a balance of aggressive and defensive play with Tails against Mage then he tends to do pretty poorly against him. Eh. Perhaps this wasn't the right place to post this. I more of a guy who deals with match ups anyway and this is all based on my personal experience/analysis.

Supposing this is true in practice, one good matchup against high tiers doesn't make the character good, especially if they also have a difficult MU against someone beneath them or right above them. I mean, according to Rem the Peach MU is cancerous for Tails but that doesn't make her better than Tails.

As long as Tails sits in a tier where his MU spread in that is about 0, then he is in the right place imo.

Of course, then Falcon should be in the tier beneath based on others' and my analyses of his MUs lol, I calculate his average MU in his tier at almost -1.

I suppose. I guess I'm just really good...

Falcon IMO is where he belongs: he is roughly even with Fox (hard to say because of how volatile it is, but not too far from even either way), is good against BM IMO, does pretty poorly against Yoshi, gets rekt by Zelda, idk against Tails, meh against Link (even? -1?), -1 against Sheik, +1 or even against DK, and idk (although I think close to even in Falcon's favor) against Goku. It's not a terrible MU spread.

I agree with TCS's perspective on this. A good matchup is only a piece of the puzzle. Things like technical capability, ease of use, the amount of kill options, all matter.

all that fits into the matchup imo

for example some characters have much better combos/kill options vs. different characters
some characters recover better vs. others

etc.

technically a character could be godlike, but have losing matchups to every character in the game, even though they have better frame data/recovery or whatever
therefore even though they're 'better', they're lower on the tier list
bit of a hyperbolic example but eh

The best way to make this a true thought is having any one of the smash gods pick the worst character in melee, and have them face a random terrible player with the top ranked character (whichever one you feel that is). The weaker player may have the gear, but will not know how to use it at its best, thus the smash god, whom has great game knowledge and experience, will win out in the end.

I remember how I said that, and I would like to retract my thoughts about Peach being that much better than Tails. Having only learned about the smash scene last summer, I felt vindicated in making declarations about Tails' abilities because I felt I knew more than everybody else. Time goes on, and I let my own playstyle dictate how I felt about a matchup, which was unprofessional. The matchup is more even than I gave it credit for at the time.

I think the main thing to consider is that viability in tournament is different than average MU spread.

Take a hypothetical new character in Melee (let's say Snake because I like Snake), that absolutely bodies Kirby, Pichu, Bowser, etc., all the way up to but not including Luigi. However, they get totally destroyed (5-95 or 10-90) by Falco and Sheik. Obviously this character would have an amazing average spread, but still a low tier list placing, because you aren't competitively viable if you can't beat two of the most-played characters. The tier placing isn't low tiers (still useful as a secondary), but definitely not as high as Falcon, for example.

While this example is ridiculous and can't happen in a game where nearly every character is played and is viable, it can happen on a smaller scale with characters like DK who have really tough matchups (BM, Samus, Link, Ichigo, more) but also have really good ones. This is contrasted with characters like MK that don't body a ton of characters (Peach, Falcon, and Wario nonwithstanding) but don't have any really bad MU's. In general, it's better to be the latter. An MK player has to deal with a few MU's that aren't fun (Pika/Zelda/Lloyd/ZSS, although this may just be personal preference so feel free to disregard this parenthetical), but doesn't have to deal with the same s*** that a DK player has to deal with. A MK player who plays me, for example, probably has to do the ditto because I don't play any characters that really win against MK. But a Falcon player has to play my MK, and a DK player has to play my BM. Even though Wario might haunt your dreams if you play Yoshi, they can't win tournaments only playing the good MU's: they also have to go against a Marth player or a Lloyd player.

You mentioned in your parentheses about personal preferences. This is why this list is better than others. It takes multiple lists and compiles them into one average list so that the placings are consistent.

It also helps defend against outlying placements, like if one guy decided that Chibi Robo is the top ranked player, but no one else thinks that. The average balances it all out.

Why does everyone complain about marth being cheap it makes me feel bad bcuz im a marth main'


My Mains

images/smilies/char_marth.png

images/smilies/char_link.png

images/smilies/char_mario.png

Dude I play Lloyd and Metaknight.
What you feel is nothing compared to me.

lol

@Space
It's because most people deal with the Marth scrubs who mostly spam side special and up special. If they don't go up against these characters, than they go up against a good Marth player who knows how to play the character.

No they spam up special and side smash. They sometimes like to utilize jab to basically wave the sword around in a nerdy "I'LL HARM YOU" way if you happen to be overwhelming them.

He's not cheap. Just irritating to deal with. Basically every character has 1 or 2 things that makes them annoying to play against.

Most characters can be played annoyingly if you so desire. Some characters, Marth being a particular offender, are better at this than others. However, every character can be played with skill and in a way that is both fun to play and fun to play against. Don't let the people who don't understand the nuances of the game, don't care to, and simply want to win matches formulaically rain on your parade, but work to win matches the hard way and gain the skill that will earn you the respect of your peers (I haven't really done that last part, but whatevs: just be like me and stalk the forums, and then people will know you!).