Thoughts??

I don't think he has THAT many unfavourable matchups
He's more A than B tier to be honest.

Explain pls.

MK, ZSS, Lloyd, Pikachu and Naruto all body him in the S tier. Marth is arguably even.

BM, Zelda, Link and Sheik all have favourable matchups vs. CF in the A tier. Fox, Yoshi and Tails are even at best. Falcon perhaps has a SLIGHT advantage over DK and Goku.

Even in the B and C tiers, characters such as Puff, Peach, Samus and Kirby wreck you as they take away your neutral and/or combo game advantage.

I'm not discounting Falcon from the A tier altogether, as he has some great strengths. However, I'd really like to see the justification.

I'd really like to know why people still think Wario is way better than his placement. Getting real tired of people who don't even study the fatman as much as I do say that stuff directly at me. Been in the lab again and again at their request and I still don't see any room for new potential at all.

sounds understandable tbh, but i think Falcon performs better offline than online compared to the laaaarge majority of the roster that benefits more from the online latency than falcon does. not saying you're wrong (since it honestly does feel like CF is B tier) but an argument can be made about his offline benefits (his movement gets inanely better and less predictable with the lack of latency) that could keep him in A tier.

although tbh, I don't think this tier list is a accurate as the one Zapperrix posted before this (the one that was made only/mostly by him)

I feel that Falcon is very good. If he can keep his momentum the lower half of the cast can't keep up with him, you just have to avoid being cheesed (which is much easier offline). I judged my votes based on how well I felt this character would do in an offline tournament, and Falcon is way better offline than he is online (same with Fox).

Wario isn't second worst Imo, but he's either bottom 5 or close to it. Before I could see him being higher, but the waft nerfs (lower knockback and longer charge times) don't allow him to play the "run away for 45-90 seconds then kill them with waft" as effectively. His tier placing is fine.

beats low tiers
must be A tier

You didn't keep in mind that Falcon not only doesn't have any positive matchup against chars above him in the tier list (while some B tiers are straight counters)
but also gets DESTROYED by most of the upper half of the cast. Some matchups are even 20:80.

Also I don't really like that offline stuff. That meant people would play in better conditions right? So yeah , maybe Falcon would be better , but edgeguarding , spacing , zoning and techskill will also get exponentially improved, and not only for Falcon.
tl;dr offline = people in semi-20XX = matchups way more significant

I think that the increase in play would go for everyone as well. But I think the increase for Falcon is bigger, considering how volatile his playstyle. Naturally safe characters get more precise but I don't think they differ too much from when going from online to offline since they have larger margins of error.

I don't think that he has any 20:80 matchups. Sure the top tiers (cept for Marth, I think that's even) give him trouble, but he can do fine against them. The only A tiers that certainly beat him are Zelda and Sheik (maybe Link, but i haven't looked into that MU all that much), he does fine against everyone else. I really don't see Falcon as B-tier if DK, Goku and Sheik are in A-tier, as I feel that they are all around the same. Maybe Falcon is the worst of them, but when played to his full potential I can see him being the best of them.


I agree with this, but it also goes for high execution characters as well. Notice how in other fighters that you won't see the higher execution characters used as often? It's because the input delay will screw you over. Rush down is also harder online because you need to be more aggressive and take more risk to get in, and some rush down tactics (like frame traps) aren't as effective due to input lag. Believe it or not, certain characters benefit more from offline environments than others (for this game Yoshi, Fox and Falcon come to mind).

he can do "fine" against MK, Naruto and Lloyd? have you ever played falcon?
those matchups are 65-35 at best.

I also find it funny that you list Zelda as one of the highest A-tier threats to CF, as that MU is probably about 55-45 or 60-40 at worst

and sure, any character can do "fine" in their poor matchups if the player is good. but that's not what tier lists are supposed to represent.

an A-tier character shouldn't rely on a bracket without MK, Naruto, Lloyd, Sheik, Black Mage or Kirby to have a good chance of winning.

As someone worse than Jammy who still manages to win with MK in friendlies, the MU sucks. Falcon can't combo, edgeguard, or win neutral unless the Falcon is a god at mindgaming, makes a hard read, or makes a frame-perfect punish on fair or bair. If you get grabbed and thrown offstage a good MK should never let Falcon come back, and with MK's huge grab range this is a viable strategy if you have a lead: sit at the ledge, if they hit your shield edge-cancel nair or fair, if they don't grab and bthrow + nairs to death. Naruto is IMO not as bad as Jammy says but probs 60-40: Falcon has a tough time getting in. Lloyd I wouldn't know, but I'd be very surprised if Falcon was better than 40-60 in that.

To be more specific, Falcon and other character would be played with more significant. The more difficult to apply tactics become more available with less room for error. Technical aspects would and execution would increase, more basic tactics lose some effectiveness, weakness become more exploitable. But every characters' potential would not increase at the same rate.

After some experimentation, I am starting to agree with Jammy. Falcon is low A at best.
His biggest pro is that he can change the pace of the game without having really having to put in a lot of effort, he outpaces the entire cast and can you that to his advantage to put himself in whatever position he needs to before his opponent can counter act. his biggest con is that his moveset doesn't really par up with other A tiers, such as Fox, BM and Tails. He can do pretty well vs the B tier chars (some of those MUs are quite situational though, as with one or two A tier MUs like Goku and Yoshi) so I don't think it would be necessary to put him anywhere lower than near the top of B.

I still think that the tiers should be broken down further, A and S are way too large...

I really think at worst, Falcon vs. Fox is 60:40. Both characters can do destructive combos on each other, but half of the times, Fox being grab is going to (should) result in him losing his stock. I still can't see how a Fox is going effectively avoid setups into chain-grabs, tech-chases, and drop-zones, that can all lead to his death.
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Marth vs. Falcon is still even to 45:55, to me. Controlling the mid-range space is key. Both characters have slick and slippy ground movement. The only glaring challenge is follow-ups and recovery Falcon. While Marth suffers a bit in ensuring his KO's on time, but he could still hold an advantage.

-Follow-ups- Falcon doesn't get as many combos off throws at low and high percents. He does, however, still have Fthrow > Knee that is practically guaranteed. And at 20% - 40%, Fthrow to Knee, Knee is possible and easy to pull off. Optimal setup Falcon should looking for: @ 20%, Nair > Fthrow > Knee > Uair. It's very easy to execute, regardless of DI. This setups tends to lead far off-stage from most stage positions it begins from and kills Marth. If it doesn't kill him, Falcon's can recovery Falcon Kick the toward the stage, grab the ledge before Marth, and edge-guard to gimp. Bthrow to Knee is also a strong kill option 60%. Uthrow to Dair is also a great setup for tech-chase/follow-ups. The amount of DI Marth has isn't too hard to follow with immediate reaction. Falcon doesn't need frame perfect reaction. He has plenty of easy to guaranteed setups; it just takes awareness in the situation.

Marth, in this match-up, is overall a bit simpler. Offensive, he granted slightly better approach with Nair than against other characters; he can easily land both hits from a short-hop on a tall character as Falcon. He gets because follow-up from Uthrow and potential juggle setups. Falcon's weight and fall-speed actually gives him to ability to adjust DI into some awkward angles on many of Marth's attacks. Might not have a ton of use, but mixing up DI has its purpose. Marth has some easy, but longer combos, with weaker finisher. Falcon need more judgement, but they're not too hard either for them being shorter combos with powerful finisher.

-Recovery- Marth is overall better and has the range to clip Falcon's attempt for the ledge against him. Dtilt could hit a miss-spaced ledge-grab. Sspecial 1 is fast and can jab out many ledge retaliations. I feel like Falcon Kicks can still make for mix-up option to trying throwing off a Marth player's timing. A options he does have on the ledge is a quicky ledge-cancel when he jumps of the ledge. Although not as fast, it's a mix-up the serves a similar purpose to a ledge-dash. But Marth still has difficulty executing the finish blow on heavy-weight characters and could struggle getting a straight kill on Falcon if he can't successfully get gimps. I can't really make a decision on this one. There's tons of effective options for recovery and ledge-guarding on both character. It really depends on in-game decision of the players. But in my opinion, Falcon seems to have some better on-stage options; Marth, however, has slightly better ledge-guarding tools, which I believe matters more (it does not mean Marth destroys Falcon though).