@Titanboy

Bowser, Pac, Sandbag, Luffy, Bomberman are all waaaaay too low, and DK, Mario, Falco, Fox are all too high.

Fox is good, always has been, but he's not in a tier of his own; his weaknesses are well understood, he just has high representation in tournament play. And Falco is not as potent as some would like to think (myself included) for the same reasons as Fox + lower kill power and lower speed.

DK bodies just as much as he gets bodied in certain MUs and is really subject to stage choices. Mario is solid, but not particularly excelling.

I really don't get the Bowser placement. Whether people think he's high tier or not is besides the point, he's DEFINITELY not in the bottom running. Same to be said for Sandbag, Pac, Luffy, and Bomberman. Dis whole list is twisted up; please explain your thought process in jumbling this together and slapping inappropriate labels on the side.

isn't top 5 or even top 10 lol, his recovery is exploitable, he is combo food, his tilts increase his hurtbox, and his hurtbox is huge which makes him easy to hit and start combos.
too low. This isn't Sm4sh lol. He has a bunch of tech that really help him and his Galaga ship Z-drop tech f*** up some characters and gives him really good stage control.
is too low, his projectile is good as it can start combos and lasts pretty long. He also has an amazing combo game.
is too low, He has amazing range and good kill power.
isn't the worst, he has a good edgeguard game andhis Bair is REALLY good. He also has a good combo game. Kirby is still bottom 5 though.
I can see why you put so low but he is actually a pretty good character. He has strong kill throws and kill confirms at 50% which is REALLY early. Also he has multiple recovery options like Upwards Down B, Side B, and Up B.

I actually can see Bowser at bottom tier. His mobility is below average, he is combo food, his recovery is exploitable, and many of his moves are slow. I always found Bowser to be overrated.

Everything about this list is wrong except for Kirby and Bowser

He's hardly bottom. His frame data is solid and his moves all have great coverage. Like DK, he can take a lot of characters from 0-60% relatively quickly, and then close the stock shortly after that while being able to survive upwards of 140% depending on the MU/stage.

At the very least he should be right around where DK lands, which should be upper mid tier.

Is that good or bad?

BTW I don't think I'll finish the chart. I've noticed that re-matches can wind up with egregiously different results, and most matches are only giving me like a 1 point difference. At the end we probably won't have a conclusive or accurate result.

At this point, can we just have like 3 tiers:



Note: I think the placements in the tiers are pretty much okay for me, but the order needs some changes

I was thinking more A+/A, B+/B, then C and D since there's little use making distinctions there.

Again with these low Bowser, Bomberman, Sandbag placements...

Tier list Rev.1

Always in an effort to continually update via personal experience and tournament results.

A+:

A:

B+:

B:

C:

D:


Notable Placements

Fox: Maybe I just don't like the guy, but I really didn't want to place him as #1, but voluminous representation at tourneys coupled with early results gives him the spot for now; as the meta continually develops, it won't be surprising to see him drop a couple spots.

Luigi: I think there's a lot of work to be done to optimize Luigi, but very few aspects of his kit are poor; great frame data, solid smash attacks, solid projectile, solid recovery, good grabs, and insane combos against the heavier characters that surround him. Dash-sliding has tons of utility and a dedicated Luigi player can do a lot with him.

Falco: His lower aerial/run speed is hindering him. That and a lack of solid vertical kill options makes closing stocks challenging compared to Fox. Lasers help shore this up along with Dair/Fair, but it does warrant dropping a few spots.

Bomberman: Dude's underrated for sure. He needs a fix on bombs on the ground being affected by reflectors, but otherwise he's effectively v0.9b version +added kill power on D-smash and a hitbox on bombs (mind you, he landed very close to A-tier in v0.9b in US play). Great grabs and martial tools that play very well with the opportunities that bombs provide, whether you detonate them or not. I'm willing to elaborate more here as I'm very much personally invested in this character's success.

Pretty much everyone in B-tier: Characters like Falcon, ZSS, Link made some good gains in Beta, rightly making them good choices in the right circumstances and MUs. But what a lot of these characters suffer from is either a meta that doesn't favor their strengths/picks on their weaknesses or there are higher tiered characters that do what they do but better.

Kirby: He has pretty much the same issues as v0.9b: lacking reliable combos, range, and a non-telegraphed way to close stocks. Up-throw helps being able to kill as early as 80% on Battlefield, but smart players know this and can easily avoid this, be safe on shield, or read the shield/dodge into grab. Overall, he struggles to wrack up damage AND close it out while being easy to kill at 70%. He has some particularly good MUs, but his spread is volatile as is his consistency.

Chibi-Robo: Good combos and neutral, solid kit, he just can't kill well yet gets killed easily himself. Chibi mains generally concur here, unfortunately. Poor guy.


For those who want elaboration on another character (especially one whose placement you disagree with), please ask before proclaiming my wrongness so a dialogue can begin.

Chibi as the second worst character - or Bottom 3/5 as everyone else loves to place him - is legit just silly. Ill take it that he has a poor 0.9b stigma combined with poor representation (as of now, the only people to seriously pick Chibi in tourney are Drarky and myself afaik) which can lead to a rather poor initial impression. And as much as I love to bash on the little guy, he is a solid mid tier in my humble opinion. One of the best projectiles in the game, high range, good neutral, solid anti-air game all around (except USmash, you knew this was coming) and offstage game both edgeguarding and being edgeguarded, solid neutral game and one of the most scary KO moves in the form of DSmash. Please. Chibi does very well against floatier characters sans Samus and MK (and even then those are pretty close MUs), those who cannot deal with a good neutral and zoning game and of course everyone who struggles landing and/or recovering, and those are weaknesses you will find across a majority of the cast. Yes, his disadvantage state is one of the worst in the game, and yes his lack of KO power is a poor joke (so Samus is a zoner with giant hitboxes and some borderline busted KO power, but Chibi gets neither? Okay I guess), but those weaknesses do not hinder the character enough to be anything lower than low mid tier. Infact, I firmly believe that a Chibi with high(er) KO power could easily place himself as high as lower high tier.

I actually dont get where this is whole "Chibi sucks" idea is coming from. Chibi has relatively decent tournament results despite his small representation (3 Top 8s, 2 9th places at decently stacked tournaments and a 1st place finish if we count secondaries) - which is a lot more than many other characters can claim, even those considered to be high tier. Chibis MU spread is also much better than it was in 0.9b where he lost to virtually everyone except the lowtiers and Link, now only really doing poorly in a few MUs, most notably Ichigo, Marth and spacies - all of which are pretty common characters, but none of those MUs is as bad as in 0.9b where certain MUs were just flat out free.

What makes Ness worse than Kirby or even bottom 5??

@Skylar, the primary challenge I had with the list in general is the rather concentrated performance of a bulk of the cast. C-tier, by-and-large are characters that don't necessarily suck, but don't necessarily succeed either. Chibi's weight and volatility towards stage choice and certain MUs hurts quite a bit and will probably worsen with time. I love his Dsmash, but it's coverage is pretty poo; plus he cannot kill off the top till late percents and back-throw kills late, too. My main beef with him is defending against Dair/Dsmash takes so much of his power to close a stock away. But I do love/hate blaster.

I do not doubt that Chibi has placed well in tournaments thanks to your able hands, but growing MU experience will perhaps only work against Chibi. Regarding your input, however (since I value your dope skill with the little dude), I can see him bumping to lower B-tier or top of the C-tier division.

To be unfortunately frank, everything beyond B+ got a little dicey for me since the representation of that section of the cast is relatively lower than the upper tiers, of which I feel quite confident.

@MeleeWalugi

Regarding Ness, this comes primarily from the work others have done over in his character forum, but coming from v0.9b Ness was already placed low. Here, PK Flash is slower, PK Fire is easier to get out of, Dsmash/Usmash lost some edge-guard utility, back-throw kills later, Uair kills later, Fair has higher initial knockback so you can't coast-to-coast much anymore. Grab range, a couple of tilt speeds, and Fsmash all improved in addition to some PK Fire/Thunder jank being available (may have already existed since v0.9b), but these are not enough to make up for a loss in his primary punish/stock closing tools and edge guard ability. Combined with an inconsistent neutral/combo game and being easy to kill off the top and you have someone who will really struggle to build damage and must commit to high risk engages in order to do so.

Why does everyone put on a really low tier?
He's one of the only characters I win consistently with!

Supremely vulnerable during recovery with low kill power and telegraphed smash attacks. From v0.9b to Beta, he lost power while a multitude of characters around him had even modest gains. His success has always been in walling out recoveries to gimp for early kills. He's like Sheik but slower with worse frame data and recovery.