Can Demon Fang have just slightly less endlag? Please?

Reason is, in Tales of Symphonia Lloyd can use Demon Fang to jab reset and combo out of it. But here, both his jab and Demon Fang have too much endlag to combo out of a jab reset with anything other than another jab or an FTilt/DTilt (maybe UTilt). It would be really cool to be able to use Demon Fang for jab resets like in Symphonia!

Probably the same reason why he doesn't have link arts anymore.

Which is why, exactly? Lack of Linked Artes nerfed his recovery hard. (Used to be able to Demonic Tiger Blade > Tiger Blade to get great vertical recovery as well as decent horizontal.) That spike hit with Tiger Blade was a great way to get back to the stage or to combo, as well. (Actually, it was a really scrub way to get back onstage that could be denied by any level 1 AI in the current build, but still great for combos.) I can understand if Demonic Thrust (Demon Fang + Sonic Thrust) was too good though, since it threw out a projectile while also out-prioritizing every projectile out there.

Honestly, I can't play Lloyd in SSF2 because he doesn't feel like Lloyd. What happened to that all-out, in-your-face aggression and those nice shiny ToS combos? The nice thing about Lloyd was that his combos made sense to me as a Tales of Symphonia player. I went into the character knowing what I was expecting (on- and near-ground combos with paced aggression. Approach rapidly, combo, then back off and approach again), and was able to capitalize on his fighting style in his own game in SSF2. I can't figure out how this Lloyd combos. In fact, since in his source game he had the highest hit count combos among the playable cast, it's weird that I'm having such a hard time finding true combos with him. I come into SSF2 expecting to play Lloyd, but it feels like I'm playing Presea.

Like, Sora still plays like Sora in that he air combos everyone for days with Flowmotion and Finishing Leap, even if Finishing Leap's combo potential seems sorely nerfed while Flowmotion is still crazy-awesome and it's super hard to land since I can't Finishing Leap out of first jab anymore. But even now, as a player of both Kingdom Hearts and Tales of Symphonia, Sora combos in a way I can make sense of. Some things lead into some other things and there's a certain amount of certainty to it, and each move generally lasts just long enough that I can worry more about spacing and less about tech skill.


And here, so I'm not just complaining: How do I play Lloyd in SSF2? I'm not against learning.

Well that's what happens when you put a pure ground based Tales of character in a Smash game, everything you said about Lloyd was right. However iirc Lloyd's changes were because of coding issues or whatever I could be wrong, I personally would like if Lloyd could do alts of his artes like Sword rain becoming sword rain alpha when pressing up before the final slash so he can combo in the air.

And on another note, what's the deal with Beast and Sword Rain? Sword Rain was always one of his best combo moves in Symphonia, but here it's a kill move for some weird reason. Meanwhile, Beast was his highest-knockback arte, sending foes flying across the battlefield, and here it can't kill lightweights at 150%. What is even up with that? Why would you deliberately mess with player expectations? Sword Rain is just a multistab thing, but even visually Beast looks like it should have kill power.

And as for ground combos, the easiest way to add ground combos back into Lloyd's game would be to put that descending spike hit back on Tiger Blade, both aerial and grounded. Now instead of being forced to carry an airborne foe further into the air, I can drag them back down where I want them.

I haven't checked in this demo but I'm pretty sure you still can pull them down with you I could be hella wrong though, and Beast in ToS started with a shoulder bash then the beast so overall it should have a extra push then a burst of knockback.

Nah, instead Tiger Blade's first hit cancels into any aerial. That could be done before, of course, but why get rid of the spike? Besides that, without the downward strike, Tiger Blade is Tiger Blade in name only.

The point with Beast is that it should have a crapton of knockback, I'm not even gonna bother arguing for 2 hits over 1, I just want my massive-knockback move to actually have massive knockback.

Also just testing Lloyd out and why is Lloyd a spacing-oriented character? Lloyd's combos in Symphonia have never been about spacing. Lloyd's combos have always been about the lack thereof. When attacking he wants to be as close to his opponent as possible, and when defending he wants just a little more space than that, about one backstep length. If I'm playing Lloyd and my combo game is based around spamming properly-spaced FAirs or BAirs, there's a problem somewhere. Likewise, if Beast has less knockback than Sonic Thrust or frickin' Sword Rain, there's a problem!

Lloyd in Symphonia:
Jab x4 > Tiger Blade > Sword Rain > Tiger Rage > Raining Tiger Blade
Jab x4 > Sword Rain > Tiger Blade > Beast
Jab x4 > Sword Rain > Tiger Blade > Sword Rain Alpha > Rising Falcon
Jab x4 > Tiger Blade > Sword Rain > Tiger Rage > Hunting Beast
Jab x4 > Tiger Blade > Sword Rain > Fierce Demon Fang > Twin Tiger Blade > Demon Fang (standing reset) > Tiger Blade > Twin Tiger Blade > Demon Fang (standing reset) > etc.
Tempest > Sword Rain > freestyle
Or if he needs to get an enemy away from his allies: Tempest > Tiger Blade > Beast or Tempest > Sword Rain > Beast Sword Rain

Lloyd in SSF2:
FAir > FAir > FAir > Sonic Thrust
Jab x2 > FAir > FAir
Tempest > Sword Rain

Anyone see the problem with the difference here? The first and most telling difference is the number of jabs. Lloyd in his own game is the only character with a 4-hit jab combo by default. Everyone else has either 3 or 2. Here in the translation to SSF2, he's gone from speediest jab (4 in a game where everyone else has 3) to slowest jab (2 in a game where most have 3). The other difference is that Lloyd in SSF2 fights in the air for some god-awful reason because all of his ground moves are stupid laggy! He only uses ground moves to control space because none of them are good offence, excluding DSmash to actually score a KO. (His other KO moves are FAir at the upper tip of the move, UAir at high percent near the upper blast line, or UTilt at very high percents. So yeah, out of his 2 good kill moves, one of them is a combo move in ToS, and the other is an aerial.)

He does two hits because that's how he was converted in the ND3 games, and I understand it makes litterally no sense for Lloyd to be more air based then ground based. Honestly I think most of this will be solved when Lloyd gets a sprite update or something to allow him to get the 4 hit normal combo, an actual proper beast along with proper rushdown instead of mindless throwing Fair's hoping 1 will hit.

It's still possible, just harder to setup. You can do a full-jump, and then do Nair-cancel into Demon-Fang. Landing after Nair-cancelling Demon-Fang reduces a lot of landing-lag and makes for time to do a follow-up. This also is true for when you Nair-cancel Sonic-Thrust (Tempest Thrust).

Lloyd is hella strong in this game. Like a Marth with a projectile and lots of other tech. His combo game is very potent too. The way he is now, he doesn't really need Link-Artes. They very likely would break him.

I do feel like Sword Rain Beta could be possible. Down-Smash doesn't have much use because Beast and Sonic-Thrust covers the same uses. Or make Sword Rain pop opponents upward for a Utilt, Usmash, or Tiger-Blade follow-up

Zalo see this part of the video: http://youtu.be/NM_t7Gg1p7U?t=2m3s
I believe that if you can alternate between Sword Rain would give Lloyd plenty of new options.
Like pressing up on Sword Rain allows you to setup nice air strikes, and Sword Rain Beta will allow Lloyd to push an opponent away if he wants some space wheras using normal Sword Rain will be able to kill at high percentages but at lower ones it'll be a combo starter.

Lloyd is "like Marth with a projectile"? Well there's the first problem. He plays like an aerial-focused spacing character with even more spacing options. He's supposed to play in-your-face offence, and his version of defensive play is supposed to take place at footsies range. Lloyd throws out solo Demon Fangs and then instantly closes the gap with Tempest. Lloyd's goal is to always approach. He spends much of his time in Symphonia in the "approaching" position. He gets a combo off, backs up to avoid the enemy's attack, then immediately goes back to "approach" mode. Lloyd specifically backs off with the intent to approach again, it's an odd but signature aspect of his playstyle. Weaving in-and-out like this maximizes his defensive ability while sacrificing as little offence as possible.

As for Down Smash? That KOs at around 90-100% for some weird reason, while Forward Smash KOs never (a lightweight survives it at 170% or more) and Sonic Thrust KOs at like 150-160%.

And people keep telling me his combo game is potent, but I can't figure anything out other than NAir into jab, FTilt, or Sonic Thrust, and jab x2 > FAir stuff, and FAir > FAir > Sonic Thrust. Or repeated wall-bounces with FAir, but that can be teched. Which I guess is decent, but it's all aerial strings with a little bit of ground contact in the middle.

Honestly, if I were designing Lloyd's moveset I'd put Sword Rain on DTilt and Fierce Demon Fang on DSmash. Sonic Thrust would go on FSmash instead of SSpecial and Beast would go on DSpecial, with the aerial version causing Lloyd to plummet down like the second half of Hunting Beast. Tempest and its two variations (Omega Tempest and Psi Tempest) would go on USpecial while Tiger Blade goes on both FTilt and FAir. UTilt would be his Riser Attack from Symphonia, and SSpecial would be Rising Falcon, with his second air attack from Symphonia being his new DAir and his first air attack from Symphonia being his new NAir. And he'd have at least a 3-hit jab even if he can't have his 4-hit, with the last hit putting the opponent right in front of him just a short distance away, right where he wants them for combos.

TL;DR version: Lloyd shouldn't play like Marth. He should be the Sora of ground combat.

Didn't his Fsmash have more kill power in older demo's?

Yeah it did. I think in older demos it was frequently still inferior to Sonic Thrust in terms of raw KB, but it definitely wasn't horribly outclassed by DSmash randomly having unfittingly-high knockback. Like literally it KOs Jigglypuff at 165% on Pokémon Stadium. That's how bad its KB growth is.

Honestly I believe it should be his strongest attack in terms of knockback, and sonic thrust should have a more sliding knockback feeling.

With Smash Bros. being a fighter with strong aerial option, yes Lloyd can play like this. But. . .. . .This is exactly how Lloyd plays. Much of you described is very much how I play Lloyd.

Yes. Beast feels too weak. Sword Rain feels too strong and should be a combo move. And the type of knockback they both have should be reversed between the moves.

Because Sonic Thrust can be done in the air, it's makes for a great ended for air-combos. But it's main purpose is to push opponents off-stage to setup for a KO option. And yes, it could be adjusted to be a better KO move.

You really got to practice more, dude. Lloyd has a very DI-ignorant combo game. He's one of the few characters that can easily chain more 5+ moves within a combo. Just because he can't combo "just like," how he can in Tales of Symphonia, doesn't make him or his combo game bad.

Short-Hop Fair > Dash-Grab, Bthrow > Dash-Grab, Bthrow > Dash-Grab, Uthrow > Up-Special > Bair = 50%

Fast-Fall Fair > Utilt > Full-Jump Uair > Uspecial > Uair or Fair = 46%

Full-Jump approaching Tempest Cancel Demon-Fang > Jab1 > Jab2 > Dash-Attack > Dash-Grab, Uthrow > Whatever the hell you want = $8.95%