This pretty much. Fox isn't justified being S-tier because he doesn't have a completely overwhelming onstage presence to make up for his horrendous weakness of being comboed. If he had the onstage presence of Falco, complete with lasers and pillar combos (actually, now that I think about it, that would be an awesome way to incorporate Falco in this game without having to create a "clone") he would be even more of a monster than he is now. He has to play really well to overcome his weaknesses, but he is very good. Solid high tier, but no more.

I just have no idea how to play against Fox, so when I play an amazing one like SS's or gEmss's, I'm stuck in mud. What are some of his tougher MUs in this game? I'm thinking Wario and Pika.

In theory, if pika can get fox off stage, it should always be a kill, but I cant edgeguard to save my life, so I can't put much testing into this.

Hehehe, you crack me up.

You all do, if you only knew how incredibly overwhelming Fox is, you could really see how good he is.
If a good Fox has you in a combo, chances are, you aren't getting out until about 80%.

Think about how many characters actually have the speed and priority that Fox has, seriously, think about it.
There's literally hardly any characters that can keep up with him. If they have priority, they're most likely slow. If they have speed, they most likely have low priority. Rarely do you see the combinations Fox has. Only other character that can perfectly match up to him is the second most technical character in the game.

Other characters ether have really good combo options against Fox, or they don't have it at all.

Sure he doesn't seem incredible at first glance, but's he's a powerhouse, I'm telling ya. His speed leaves most confused and dazed.
Even when it's a Fox vs Fox, both are most likely getting a bit nervous. One screw up and they're dead.



Ichigo of course is one. I don't know about Pikachu. Meta Knight can wreck Fox if he wants to, though it my take some extremely careful planning. Donkey can chain grab Fox I think, maybe into a charged Punch if he's smart. Lloyd can usually catch Fox off guard with dspecials. I think maybe Sonic can do the trick too. Wario isn't so bad once you're used to him, he's actually pretty easy to get around of you manage to find his blind spots.

It's all really a matter if Fox can stay onstage. If he gets gimped, it's gonna be one heck of match if you fall behind. Only way to catch up is if you happen to have a great advantage on that character.

I don't deny his power at all, I used to be in the camp that believed fox was a top 5 character (last demo). Granted, Fox has incredible tools that make him a very good character. He still has weaknesses that he has to play well to avoid, if we assume the highest level of play every time Fox gets hit he should die, he gets comboed hard and once he is offstage that should be a stock.

No different than say Donkey Kong or Ichigo, who we all say should get combo'ed or 0-death'ed offline. Heck, everyone can get 0-death'ed. Fox just happens to have one of the better tools for combo'ing.

I wouldn't say everytime, but it's quite often. That is if the opponent has a high priority attack that sends him at a semispike. Characters like Wario and Sora make this interesting.

Starkiller said it first. If we're assuming Mew2king is playing SSF2, then every combo with Fox is 80+% or death, and basically every other character does the same or better. Donkey Kong v Fox is particularly exemplary of this. I compare him somewhat to Sheik in Melee: he has fabulous matchups against the lower tiers who can't handle his devastating combination of speed, priority, and good linking moves, along with his fabulous kill power. However, I think his matchups with the top tier (whoever that is) aren't great, and he certainly has some bad matchups.

Gimme a few examples on how you flawlessly combo'ed someone 0-death.

I think the only characters who are in the "or better" camp are the ones I ranked above Fox: Lloyd, DK, Ichigo, and Wario (you can disagree but I think Waft is a ridiculous game changer), and I would argue that all of those characters need fixing. I don't consider them to be completely legitimate, whereas I feel Fox is. This disparity in how much you have to do to be effective between Fox and those characters I mentioned is gigantic. So yeah, you can argue that Fox has really tough matchups at the top, but how long is that going to last? I feel like those guys are going to be brought a little closer to earth, at least I hope so.

I think Fox has pretty severe problems with Juggling and Edge-Guarding. Both are kind of hard to do consistently online, though. He was mid-high on the Tier list in v.0.9a, and shouldn't be too much higher, if at all, now.

Fine, whatever floats you're guys' boat. I'm getting tired of arguing about it.

Meh...

Can someone help me out with the Wario MU? Practice is hard to come by, considering no one plays him other than slaypes. It seems to be Fox's toughest because fatty has priority over like all of his moves, including nair and dair, which is ridiculous. i've deduced that mostly from playing CPUs and seeing how effective his defensive style can be against Fox. He also has a permanent edge guard for a low recovering fox by just standing on the edge with Chomp. Which actually leads me to a Chomp suggestion: should the move be holdable like that? It's a pretty cheap edge guard against players with simple recovery options. You should at least have to time it, and even that would be easy. Anyways, suggestions on the MU?

Believe it or not, Fox DOES have a priority advantage. The first intial hit of nair outprioritizes everything Wario has except maybe dash attack. You just happen to get the sour end of things because you probably didn't space well enough. If you're on the floor, I would just attempt to use a getup attack. Rolling away makes it all the more worse if he trys to Shoulder Bash.

And please, go all out on Wario if you hit him, ok?

Once you get that hit, don't let up, but also don't be reckless. Be smart about how you approach him. Also, if he does start a chomping spam, just shoot a couple lazers in his face. That'll probably give him a good idea that he should stop and you're not stupid enough to run straigh into it.

Wario's main approach against Fox will be Shoulder Bash and dash attack, it's a 50/50. Nothing else is really effective or safe. Except maybe Chomp, but no one hardly tries that. Keep that in mind if he starts getting too close for comfort.

If the Wario does decide to be a jerk and save up his fart from stalling, just shoot lazers. You do have the neutral game advantage right?

Thanks for the tips. Speaking of Fox's laser, I wish it were a little more satisfying. Could use a hit sound. Characters seem totally unaffected by it.

wario can chomp chaingrab you if you're bein dumb so be careful