Again if you are slower than marth its going to be a huge uphill battle

If his jank gets rid enough itll be more like a moderate incline

What jank does Marth have besides Dolphin Slash?

The noticeably easier tippers is one thing.

Then you have dancing blade which is basically a long a** jab with a hitconfirm 22% or combo starter or situational gimp (hell you can still land 3 hits of the move on DK at 650%. Besides the timing (and pretty colors :3), i think it should be reverted to melee dancing blade as far as the move's knockback is concerned.

Counter kills also upsets me (im all for a Melee counter) but I could be in the minority there.


Marth has become the Go-To noob character, and that sentence should have never been aloud to be said.

Easier tippers isn't really jank, more just Marth being Marth and not awful debilitated Marth from last patch. Dancing Blade is good but is hardly unpunishable or OP IMO. It's certainly not as good as some of the combos he has, so I'm not even certain that Dancing Blade is really something that is useful in situations where you can grab, fair, utilt, dair, or uair.

Any theories on how to deal with MK as Marth? Seems to be perhaps his toughest MU. MK can get in on him fairly easily and take him to the edge where Marth has a difficult time coming back. In a tourney setting, I'd never go Marth against him, but I'm interested in hearing some strat. Thanks.

Fair is your only hope xD

Seriously, Marth does have serious problems. As someone who plays both Marth and MK, I think that there are a couple main things to do:

1. Don't make hard reads or big commitments. MK's dash JC grab is an omnipresent threat, and against MK that can often lead to your doom. Don't try fancy things like Dolphin Slash off a hard read and don't spam fsmash because you're trying to beat an imaginary approach: you'll get punished.

2. In the air, you have some advantages: when spaced well, your aerials will beat nair, and with correct positioning you can beat his other aerials too. Bair and fair can beat out your aerials, though, so be careful: all of his sword moves have transcendental priority, so you can't rely on priority to beat his air game.

3. On the ground, you have good poking tools that can beat his. Dtilt, ftilt, and fsmash are all viable, although beware the 1st point I made: MK can JC grab a lot of your moves.

4. One of MK's weaknesses is like Falcon, a lot of his combos depend on getting speed beforehand. Be wary of being above MK on a platform, because that's how he can combo. If you stay around him, he can't get airspeed and can't combo as much.

I lost a tourney match by counters alone.

And the dumb part about that is that even tho we know that grabs beats counters, attacks beat grabs! And of course when you decide to grab they are gonna attack -_-

Makes it hard for my Tails since he has very short grab range. I was practicing grabs with Sonic and I was like "whoa, such long grab range~". Since Marth has longer grab range, he is more likely to 'grab my grab' since I don't really have any range. Not that Marth has super range, it's just longer than Tails. For the record I'm not claiming Tails has unfairly short grab range. Just pointing out a fact of life for him. He's already powerful enough without them...or maybe I just don't care because I rarely use them.

Counter really should like, never kill you.
Marth has been givin too many get out of jail free cards

I'm sure they made counter like Brawl where its 1.1x damage multiplier so that is why it can KO.

I think Marth needs to be nerfed in just the following ways:

* Dancing Blade startup slightly increased (4 frames at most) and much easier to SDI (if SDI multipliers are a thing in this game, which I think they are)
* Dolphin Slash landing lag (when it doesn't enter specialfall) increased drastically, along with the global specialfall landing lag I expect to be in the next version, vertical disjoint reduced, startup lag slightly increased, priority decreased
* Maybe small nerfs in the hitboxes on fsmash and dair, and other tweaks

Is there anything else that needs to be nerfed? Counter is super risky and so should have some serious reward to make it a viable move, and Dancing Blade is mostly OK.

DB doesn't even have hitlag (except for the 4th sword attack, whichever it is), meaning it can't be SDI'd. At least, Marth doesn't go through hitlag. Dancing blade's startup is the same as Melee's (where it wasn't that great), at most 1 frame of startup would suffice if it were to be changed. DB in Brawl came out on frame 4, analog to frame 2 here. Anyways, giving DB hitlag would be a huge nerf since it would allow counterplay!

The dolphin slash and dancing blade nerfs would do almost nothing to affect my play. The only instance I ever touch dancing blade is to recover, stall, or sometimes after a fthrow to fsmash. I literally only use dolphin slash to recover or to finish an upwards combo if it's the only way I can reach. Using those moves outside of those scenarios is hella scrubby.

Heh heh I was doing buffered DS to get out of combos before it was cool