MK has one of the least laggy sets of normals in the game: where are you getting a "laggy ground game" from? What moves besides his fsmash are even a little bit slow?

side tilt, up tilt, down tilt, jab.

Just to remind you mew2ube found and said them as laggy moves, but I still agree they kinda are after playing with them a lot.

Edit: List of other stuff though ( I know you didn't ask this):

Haruhi from the dreamland discord says MKs tech roll isn't that good either.

Has a blind spot on grab (like some other characters).

And maybe lastly, he might be better off with smash 4 back/side dodge (w/e you wanna call it when you hold shield and press left/right), that's just me though.

This is probably it tbh (I know I suggested the up air combo earlier, if you wanna continue talking about that, talk to me on discord about it cause i'm done repeating and explaining it more here tbh lol, and no I don't expect it to come into game but it would be cool imo).

I wonder if it's a good idea to link the dreamland and or SSF2U discord so we can just talk in there instead.

I mean, why should MK get a buff if he's top 10 at worst

There's 30 characters worse than him that should be buffed
Hell, Kirby has an even laggier ground game, slow air game, recovery worse than MK, and lack of disjoints
Meanwhile Bandana Dee suffers from lack of kill moves, disjoints that get beaten out by some non-disjoints, laggy attacks, and terrible vertical recovery
Why must the objectively best Kirby character get buffed

Like I said earlier, I also think EVERYONE should get buffed BEFORE MK. I don't even care if they surpass him on the tier list.

I know other characters have their problems too that's again why I said I wouldn't mind if MK got a buff AFTER everyone else does.

Even if he if the best Kirby character, doesn't mean he doesn't have issues like the ones listed above in my previous post. now i'm ask a question, Why should those be ignored? (i'm not saying you said that, but just asking).

I think all problems like some or all of the ones listed MK has should be a fix for everyone (maybe not everyone, idk)?

It's called "Weaknesses"

Weaknesses he shouldn't have imo (at-least to most).

He has other weaknesses (some i've said long time ago i think on page 4-5, i don't remember the page) but these listed before recently again imo, shouldn't be.

There is a fine line between discussing balancing issues, and asking for nothing but buffs and claiming that MK should not have any weaknesses

sigh.. I thought i was kinda clear on this.. oh well (like i said before tho, i'm bad at explaining things lol).

He should have weaknesses, he DOES have weaknesses, but the ones i mentioned SHOULDN'T be weaknesses. He has weaknesses but i didn't say them in the recent posts, i said them long time ago and the last one i think i said was that his N-air isn't a disjoint so you can hit, grab him out of it sometimes (I guess if timed right).

The "weaknesses" listed recently I guess sure should be looked at as a balance issue that needs to be fixed.

Should I list all the weaknesses (I at-least know of) on here again? I have no problem doing it tbh.

The only buff i want currently on MK is that those "balance issues"are fixed (or does that not count as a buff)?

Forget all the other buff suggestions I made before, I don't care for them anymore (maybe except the up air one which I will only talk about on discord or pm on here if anyone wants).

lol

Seriously: what weaknesses does MK have? The only real weakness he has is a lack of projectile or reflector, and his poor survivability. That's literally it. He has the best recovery in the game, great edgeguarding, a solid neutral, solid punish game, good range, plenty of disjoints, good kill moves, good mobility/maneuverability, decent approaches and walling, and a generally-fast normal moveset.

A place I'd really like to see his design evolve is to give him another weakness to give him something to play around. Characters that are just sorta good at everything are boring IMO. A MK design that couldn't kill, for example, would be interesting: MK might get some buffs to compensate, but the end result would be in my opinion a character that feels a bit more fun to play against and to play with.

A MK design that couldn't kill? Right now most the times (i guess this is just me, though i'm still learning MUs for MK and trying to make use of the walk button while having auto dash on in a actual match) i end up getting a lot of my opponents to to very high % before killing, again most the times

Some people even think MK can't kill (which I don't believe). But to be honest I agree with most of what you just said. If MK actually couldn't kill, would the up air to up be considered fun,balanced and good combo (that can kill not to early though) to have on MK? or no? (again not the pre patch smash 4 up air to up b, the one I mentioned earlier).

but the weaknesses said, he does have more than those 3 weaknesses imo.

If he has many weaknesses, why is he considered top 10 at worst?

he struggles against most top tiers with a projectile.

dies early

you can gimp to make him have a hard to recovering (yes you can gimp him, probably not considered a "real weakness" but just putting that out there).

he sometimes gets out ranged

ground game again is a little laggy

Can he kill as early as them? (besides edge guarding).

He's still very good and has lots of good things going for him like Code said, but I honestly think the top 5 I mentioned early are better. I know they have weaknesses to, but I still think they are better than MK atm. This is just an opinion though.

Most of what you said applies to Melee Puff, yet Puff is still considered a high tier in Melee