You're right, lets try it this way, or re-work his attacks


For the new suggested changes

For Dash-Attack
Copy/paste old SideB to Dash-Attack

For SideB
Buff the new SideB's damage, add a sweetspot.

For Ftilt
Add more KnockBack, and fix it

Honestly I feel it would be much better if his dash attack was Fierce Demon Fang and shot small rocks that do no stun, and the hilt of his Side Special would give off a sliding effect on opponents so he can have spacing while the tip of it pushes the opponent slightly while doing much more damage so he can land follow ups.
Because as it is right now his dash attack and Dtilt are the same exact thing.

Of course competitive players get hit by it, they just blindly run into it while trying to extend a combo.
They should get hit by it for not punishing properly. It's called a fighting chance my friend.

If you get knocked onto the floor, you're stuck there for a few seconds. That should be enough time for your opponent to capitalize on your mistake, not rewarding them even more because you messed up and weren't playing well enough. It's unfair and annoying.

The defensive side needs this balance for a few reasons:

1 - You already suffer a time penalty of being unable to move for not teching.
2 - Because of the length of rolls, there's no way you can get out of a tech chase or shield pressure if you happen to get
caught up in it.
3 - It's plain stuipid when you can't do anything and you're just stuck there. No fighting chance whatsoever unless your opponent is too slow (hehe).
4 - The combination between fast attacks, high priority moves, shield stun, and low ranged grabs makes everything seem pressure based.


You act like these options are a big deal when they're really not. Apprently you don't see how easy it is to avoid them in the current version of the game. You can get out of their range, jump over them and punish afterwards, literally hit the opponent if you have a high priority move, heck you can probably even get a stock outta it.

Sure, I'm positive that these things will get just at least a small buff, perhaps even a bit more. I understand the devs are leaning towards the Melee/Project M offensive side, but you can't deny that the offense in this game is too much. If you can outmaneuver and out combo your opponent, you win. End of story. No chance for the other side in anyway possible.

Why I'm telling you this is why I believe this game has a small competitive fanbase.

Almost everyone that has tried playing like we do are Melee veterans or are familiar with offense in a fighting game right? The only reason the casual players come back is because of all these cheap and quick strategies that take no skill whatsoever to master. That's the reason we see so many characters that are safe, they're newbie/noob characters. But when you take characters that take a considerable amount of skill to use compared to the newbie characters, there's a big difference between the 2.

Yes, I'm very aware that noobs and newbies alike need stuff like this to stand up to the more skilled players. BUT, it can frustrate us more skilled players who have been playing this for months/years and then we end up complaining about a certain character vs this character....blah blah blah.....

AND HERE WE GO WITH THE BABBLES AND RAMBLES.

Ugh, I'm done...

No that's not what I meant and think you misunderstood me. I was in fact specifically refering to Get Up attacks. The other options do seem "nerfed" from other games (get up attacks too, but I address this later). Rolls should have more lenght and its animation should end just as they reach the final spot; for example, Mario is still rolling while he already stopped moving. This would also help to the "feel" of them.

Regular Get Ups could get a touch up too.

What I was debating was that giving GU attacks more priority/invincibility would just make them the better option almost all the time. You simply offer buffing them without giving them any drawbacks (at least it seems like it, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's say you're on the floor and can already do any of the 4 actions. If someone comes with an attack you can choose to do the regular GU to avoid it and punish the lag or if you're feeling it try to counter it with the GU attack. However if they're just approaching with a jump/dash/whatever you most likely will get them with the GU attack.
Now imagine if the attack has both invincibility and high priority; in both situations you'll be better off doing the floor attack over the standard standing up, since at worst both attacks will clash.

I think making them a lil faster should be enough; it's stupid that someone that's standing right beside you gets to punish you because your GU attack (damn I'm tired of typing this so many times!) is slow and attacks your back first, giving them plenty of time to react (see Wario).


Not that sure about that too, some are already complaining camping is really effective with the likes of Naruto and Link (even claiming some projectiles are OP, though that's irrelevant) and that style differs greatly from a "offensive" game. And isn't "outmaneuvering and outcomboing" your oppponent pretty much the idea of Smash/competitive fighting games? Well that and outsmarting your opponent, but that's in this game too (waiting for opening with the likes of Puff and Sheik for example).

There go my thoughts. Sorry if I didn't address some of your important points and if some ideas don't seem clear; I can try clear em up if any doubts

Could you make it so that Ness just takes damage from the thunderball instead of flying straight up?
See 3:10 here.
In this game when Ness is hit into his own thunderball, he is still launched by it, most of the time straight up.

Coin Mode should be replaced with Struggle.

Example: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Struggle

Like I said, you already suffer a time penalty for not teching, roughly 2 1/2 seconds. And they don't need insane priority ether, just actual invicibility would work nicely.

I think I may have misunderstood a bit, sorry about that.

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As for camping, do you not find it harder to avoid if you decide to actually block for once? If someone wants to shield a projectile and get closer to the camper, they need to perfect shield. Another reason why this game encourages you to play perfectly. The shield stun on most projectiles also doesn't help when you try to close in. Since most are extremely fast and/or have low cool down time, guess what, they just threw another projectile.

The amount of priority is rediculous anymore, it literally eats your shield. Bigger characters tend to get overwhelmed by this because of the shield sizes not being poportional. There's always been a reason why characters like Link are ment to be at least a bit slow in the home games. He's supposed to have a range advantage, he's supposed to have somewhat slow attacks with high KO power, he's supposed have projectiles for a reason, and he's supposed to have some trouble up close.

You can't take away his range, make him faster, buff his KO power, and buff up his projectiles even more! Do you see my point?

And besides, isn't just running around and throwing projectiles the same as outmaneuvering the opponent?

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I've been playing Smash for about 3 years now and have played all the games, yet I have never entered an actual tourney since I'm not age appropriate to drive. So why would you take advice from some online player? Well, because of my knowledge of actually playing from 2 different sides of the game. I play casual, and competitive believe it or not. Plus, I know the in's and out's of offense and defense fairly well. I'm just expressing my opinion on what the more casual, Brawl players would want in a game like this.

It's literally been a matter of whether this is Melee or Brawl based game, but this game so happens to be inbetween for creativeness. You have to find a balance though if you mix the 2. You can't have a Melee based Fox without wavedashing, and you can't have a Brawl based Zero Suit Samus without some good solid buffs to match up to the somewhat Melee enviroment. There needs to be a balance, otherwise you result in a mess.

All the characters here have short ranged attacks in general to encourage a more exciting, close up game. But then there's these characters that do have extreme camping/ranged/priority abilities. So here's a question, "WHERE THE HECKS THE BALANCE?!?"

Simple, there is none. It's a mess. That's why this game has always suffered from so many drastic tier list changes.

I understand this game is still being worked on, so I get that, but there needs to be changes to the system. So there you have it, my main point...

Balance.

I just think invincibility isn't needed, just make them faster and hit both sides effectively. For this I think it's just a matter of preference. I get your point and I hope you got mine haha.

When I brought up camping it was just to counter your "offensive based" statement. So I didn't say camping didn't involve outmanouvering, but that camping=/=being offensive. So yeah I agree that "just running around and throwing projectiles" is outmanouvering.
I agree with the shielding part, but I'm not really versed in this area to compare it to other games so won't say much. The biggest offender imo is Naruto, with his side special and up special (clone mine) making you stay in shield for ages.

Also yeah balance isn't the greatest, but I strongly believe is the best we've seen in smash, or tied with 64. At least every character gets to compete. Try to win a match with Kirby in Melee or Ganon in Brawl, almost imposible. Here even with Puff (considered worst) you can play efficiently if you're smart. I hope from now on they just give little tweaks to characters since that's what needed, not heavy buffs/nerfs (like in P:M). Of course not all MU will end up 50:50, but even 70:30 doesn't sound too bad (considering Fox-Peach in Melee is like that, but Armada still gets even matches with Mang0)

When creating a chatacter, Smash places a heavy emphasis on checks and balances. Playing Smash in my opinion is all about usin your opponent's disadvantages and your own advantages. Link was given long range, and a large set of projectiles as his advantage. But in return, he's somewhat slow, and has trouble recovering. So Link isnt really meant to have all that, it comes naturally as a consequence for his advantages.

The main reason there are campus safe characters is bevaue their defense is far better than their offense. If their offense wasbstronger, or defense was weaker, than they would approach more.

My suggestion is to lessen the amount of time items are on screen. They sit in one place for too long, and items like red shells last too long after being thrown.

Have you seen Project M? It's even better.

Also, no one knows how to compete against/with Peach. Armada is simply the only one that's good with her. And I think the MU in general is based off of average among Smash players.

Not sure how the balance is in that game to be fair haha, but I've heard many complaints of OP characters/recoveries or that some characters aren't even usable anymore (ie Shiek/Falco). Of course it's balance is way better than any official smash title.

I'm pretty sure MU's are based on the potential of the characters against the others + tools available against each of them. So it's more about theory and less about results. That's why Fox has so many favorable match ups: in theory he can wreck anyone without even getting touched, but you see many players getting inconsistent results with him.

And the Peach remark was more about how someone can still take a character considered "bad" and develop it's meta to levels never seen before (like how people are saying about Yoshi SSF2).

Id like to see Kirby's copied Bomberman ability getting a rework.

Right now its kind of useless.

Ideas:
1) Make it faster
2) You can hold on to it
3) Maybe make it function like Bomberman's B, but you can only have 1 out at a time as opposed to 5, and the explosion is triggered by Neutral B when there is a bomb out already, otherwise it draws a bomb. If this is the case, maybe make the bomb correspond to Kirby's color so there wont be any confusion on who's bomb is who's.

Id really like to see 3 happen, make it pretty interesting when copying Bomberman.



Also please let Zelda's copy ability hit multiple times like the actual Zelda neutral b. Its pretty useless like it is right now.




By the way, sheik and falco are definately useable in Project M, people are just salty because they arent as dominant as they used to be. Falco's bad recovery isnt even going to be much of a problem come 3.5, when they're nerfing a lot of recoveries.

Some minor suggestions you might not actually be aware of.

1. When Mario runs to the right and slide kicks and changes direction, he walks. That's incorrect because in the smash bros games, he is able to run in a different direction after slide kicking.. if you don't get it, i'll show it to you.

(Sorry for terrible FPS, using Gyazo Gif)
Here's the MP4 if you want it. It's smoother. http://i.gyazo.com/3e578e70c324acac9be9f046f549c973.mp4
(Hint: Supposed to be running)

2. More sprites. Goku's Final Smash kamehameha beam is still cut at the end. Perhaps using the regular goku kamehameha would fix the problem?

a. Mario does not backflip, I know sprites are very hard to make so take your time.

3. This is my opinion and you might not like it so you don't have to read this.

a. Make airshielding a one time thing and make them fall. (Like Melee)
b. Possible menu music option. I do not dig the menu track.
c. Lower the time they're in their final smash form (Goku, etc).

4. The intro.. holy cow. It's not good in my opinion at all. The beginning was kickass but, when Donkey and yoshi makes noises, the intro should be in sync. Watching Naruto and the other characters is pretty cool but it's unnecessary.

5. Unnecessary characters. Once again, this is in my OPINION.

In my opinion, you should remove the following.
a. Chibi Robot

And that's about it. Chibi Robot was such an unnecessary addition.

6. Another (small) suggestion is when you walk from any direction to the opposite direction, you run in the smash bros game but you walk instead in this game.
Lemme show you.


When Mario walks right and goes left, he should be running. But in Smash Flash 2, he's walking.

7. Once again, IT'S ABOUT MARIO. When Mario flings his cape, he should be floating a bit longer. In Smash Bros 4, he could use the cape twice before falling down faster.
That's all I have for now. These are small suggestions but they make up for it.

Yeah, let's just remove Chibi Robo, is not like it took a lot of effort to make and it's actually an amazing addition from an unrepresented IP. But anime characters are completely necessary, that's so what nintendo is about! /s

Also all this "walking/dashing" problems you have it's coz in the official games you would dash if you tapped the stick; here's no tapping, so to dash you either press a button, have it done automatically or double tap. So you can do the stuff you are suggesting, but not the usual way.

The intro isn't problematic since you can skip it and the cape "nerf" may be due to balancing reasons; this is however the most legitimate thing you said