MAGOR, MAGOR UPDATE: THIS THREAD HAS UNDERGONE A CHANGE IN FOCUS. READ EVERYTHING FROM "REALLY IMPORTANT"

Hey everybody, it's me here. Today, I have decided to create a thread. This is a place for mains of characters to discuss the buffs/nerfs/whatevs to make them balanced compared to the rest of the cast, so eventually, some point down the road, we can blend together ideas for a dream balance patch or something of that sort. It is inspired by a very similar thread for SSB4 (and recently Smash Ultimate) on Smashboards, and I thought it would be nice if I brought that general idea over here. So, for the first few days, just discuss some universal balance changes you'd like to see. Like, say, maybe a 3-5 days. Then we will choose one fighter and discuss changes made to them.

REALLY IMPORTANT, READ THIS BEFORE CONTRIBUTING FURTHER: I decided to change the direction of the thread entirely, simplify things a bit. I no longer want the posters to make tier lists and s***. For now, just spend the first few days suggesting universal changes that affect gameplay, and the future of the thread.

Discussion will start off when I bump this thread again, but I will share a few universal balance changes to show the gist of what I mean:

-Increase the consistency of most multi hit moves in some way. There's some multi hits that really don't hit that well (Bandana Dee's n-air being a great example off the top of my head), and this would just be a nice QoL change.
-Make recovery moves actually travel up slopes on the side of the stage. On Final Destination, for example, so many characters (Like Mario and Captain Falcon's up specials) just stop dead upon hitting the slope. They really should be fixed to travel up the walls instead, this is such unneeded and frustrating jank.
-Add Smash Ultimate's run cancelling. It's one of the best new mechanics of the entire Smash series IMO, and it helps grounded combat flow just so, so much better. Though I'm probably biased because this would help out all my mains a lot, haha.
-Allow B-reversing for all special moves.
-Make every move safe on hit. Nobody should be punished for landing their f*** attack.
-And the most out there of my suggestions: Wavedashing. BUT WITH SOME CHANGES. Chiefly, it would be only a single button input (probably the second shield button, which is redundant anyways), completely unrelated to dodging/air dodging.

EDIT: Thread bumped. Now discussion can start.

I have some buffs I would like to share, so I'll kick off with the first post. (You don't have to do exactly what I did; You don't have to color the text or come up with a nickname for the character you're suggesting buffs/nerfs for)

(Mario's underappreciated lil bro)

* Increase the range of up air. This alone would be a significant buff. Luigi's up air has everything needed to be a great multi-purpose; speed, low-ish vertical knockback, ability to lead into other moves at a wide range of percents..... it's very much like Mario's up air from SSB4... or it WOULD be, if it weren't for one magor problem: Range. It's range is absolutely pathetic, and it's very prone to whiffing in times where it very clearly should have hit, which is enough to render it unusable. Just boosting it's range alone to where it can reliably hit would be a great improvement right off the bat, but he needs a bit more (but not much, IMO)
* Boost mobility/approach a bit. Right now, his approach is what really kills him. It's what holds him back from his full potential. Just some increases to his walking, dashing, and air speed would do wonders for him. Also somewhat related, lower short hops would help plenty, considering how useful his aerials can be. While probably not necessary, I would increase the range on his tilts a bit so that he can use them more effectively.
* Make grab longer-ranged. His throws just may be the best thing about him, but right now, he struggles a bit with getting the grab, so I guess a longer-ranged grab would help.

All in all, Luigi dosen't need much to become viable. He has great moves, but his problem lays in actually getting the chance to use them, as many characters can shut his a** down for repairs before he gets any chance to start a combo string. IMO, he only needs a few improvements to range and speed, and he can use his great moves to their extent. These are just the buffs I thought of at the top off my head.

Luigi probably needs more than that. Here are my suggestions with the 1.0.3.2 mechanics (Including disjoints) existing.

Luigi:

- Make his Skid Animation not loop so his traction can actually be used
- Give Luigi SLIGHTLY faster dash speed, probably a faster initial dash speed so he can better utilize dash cancelling
- Increase the mobility of crawl to give Luigi more mixups
- Slightly increase air mobility
- Slightly increase shorthop size so double aerial pressure is a thing
- Make Dash Attack connect much better
- Decrease Knockback on F-Smash making it less dumb for killing.
- Increase Active Frames on N-Air
- Decrease Base Knockback and Knockback Growth on F-Air so the move instead is a combo move instead of a kill move
- Decrease Startup on F-Air and make the move overall sped up.
- Remove F-Air's Ability to send the opponent backwards
- Decrease Startup on Up-Air
- Fix Up-Air's hitboxes
- Make D-Air a meteor move and not a horizontal kill move.
- Slightly Increase Luigi's Grab Range
- Make B-Throw a more reliable kill throw.
- Increase priority on Fireballs
- Make Luigi Cyclone go further on the ground and rise up higher on the air
- Increase Knockback on the Final Hit of Luigi Cyclone slightly to make it a better kill move at the top.

That's probably what i'd do for Luigi.

I'm usually controversial for my opinions on pac-man, but I will make suggestions to make pac-man balanced and not nearly as annoying to fight while still being better.
Pac-Man:
- Make Dash Attack hits connect better
- Make Final Hit of Dash Attack have more Knockback
- Remove Sourspots from Pac-Man's Smash Attacks except for the first hit of Up-Smash.
- Decrease Knockback of F-Air so it can combo into N-Air consistently like in Smash 4
- Make B-Air actually have kill power
- Have D-Air connect properly and have the move make the opponent go somewhere for once.
- Decrease Endlag of Grab
- Reduce Knockback of D-Throw and change the angle to be a little bit more like smash 4.
- Increase Knockback from B-Throw and make it harder to DI out of.
- Decrease active frames of disappearing fruits by like a second or two.
- Make ALL Fruits bounce on the ground like cherries when Z-Dropped
- Remove the Infinite Fruit glitch
- Make it so Fruits don't take Hitlag preventing glitches like Keychain from occuring.
- Make Fruits Reflectable
- Increase Knockback of Apples.
- Make throwing melon up work like in Smash 4.
- Increase Knockback of Melons
- Fix galagas to be like 1.0.2 except without the Z-Galagas.
- Rework Bell slightly so the higher the percent the higher the amount of stun there is. So that also means decreasing stuntime at lower percents.
- When dropping hydrant, make it so hitting hydrant isn't going to affect the hydrant preventing things such as marth's up-air one shotting hydrant right after pac-man drops hydrant and killing pac-man at like 90% or so.
- Have Side-B be one powerful single hit like in Smash 4.
- If Pac-Man doesn't have a double jump after using side-b, at least let pac-man be able to use an aerial or specials that aren't side-b.
- Fix the infinite Side-B ToS glitch.
- Give Pac-Man more distance off of Trampoline
- Make Up-Special ignore shields
- Remove the Up-B grab freezing glitch.
- Fix the weird glitch where trampoline goes above hydrant sometimes and hydrant doesn't interact with trampoline for no reason.
- Give Hydrant a set amount of knockback and not have other moves factor into the knockback.
- Make Hydrant not refresh on hit, because that's gay.

This may seem more like nerfing pac-man, while it is nerfing some of pac-man's more annoying things to deal with. Pac-Man as a whole is better as he'd have a better punish game, a better recovery (Eventhough the removal of the glitch did nerf pac-man's overall recovery on ToS and his recovery was fine in the first place, it still needed some reworks and needed to be a little bit more like Smash 4) and especially an increase in kill power (One of pac-man's biggest issues), pac-man would overall have an easier time dealing with the cast without having to abuse glitches, which overall is a buff to the character as a whole.

I'm going to make more later on so stay tuned.

Turn Sandbag into the best character in the game, or at least top 5

Make bombs do half the damage they usually do, but just on sandbags
Make d-air faster
Make Down-b somewhat useful on the ground
Make there be less time before getting the capsule
Make his dash have less space between steps
Something for TOs, make there be certain items that are turned on (although rarity of items is turned off)

luigi needs to be buffed. Heres my thoughts.

-shorten the duration of the sliding animation by about 20%
-make his down air a dedicated spike instead of a minuscule spike hitbox. You know what, just give him Falcos down air.
-slightly increase air mobility
-slightly increase ground mobility
-increase crawling mobility
-make his down-b work as a multi-hit like in smash 4

that's about all I want to see changed for know, but with the next balance patch including engine changes, i feel there will be more on the way.

I have some ideas for Meta Knight and Pikachu. I feel that Meta Knight is pretty balanced overall, but there are some nit-picky things that I wouldn't mind seeing. Pika, on the other hand, could use some buffs.


- Increase startup on f-smash slightly while decreasing endlag to make it more like his smash 4 version
- Decrease knockback and knockback growth on first hit of Up-b so it links together cleaner and characters don't get thrown too far away for the second hit to connect
- Lower endlag on u-tilt
- Increase the distance of his tech roll/get-up roll/ledge roll. This is one of MK's biggest weaknesses imo as it makes it substantially easier to be tech chased by chars like Naruto and Marth and just hampers his defensive options
- Lower the drawback effect on his side b. While the drawback on the move does make it *slightly* safer on stage as an offensive option, it is still easily punished and has too little reward to be useful in neutral. The drawback also makes it risky in its main use of recovery; one mistake and you just SD'd.

Again, these are just kind of nitpicky things that MK is more or less fine without


- Make bair have more knockback growth and increase its hitbox slightly to make it a stronger edgaurding tool
- Give pika his smash 4 Thunder
- Make the hits on pika's fair connect into each other easier, and maybe make it carry the opponent with pika like his smash 4 version
- increase horizontal knockback on f-smash and d-smash. Also make the hits of d-smash connect into each other better
- Bring back 9b dair's horizontal knockback, but not as extreme as it was back then

These Pika buffs could definitely improve on his major weakness (kill power) as well as a small buff to his edgegaurding ability and just make him more dangerous overall.

Some suggestions for a few other people (not the full list by any means):

(The hero of time)

* Increase the base knockback of up tilt. This move can combo into itself multiple times for over 50% at low percents. SO I suggest boosting it's base knockabck a bit (and maybe lowering it's damage a bit, from 9 to 7) so it's juggle isn't quite as crazy.
* Lower the damage of uncharged bow. 13% per uncharged shot. That's almost as much as his Spin Attack, and plenty more than other similar projectiles. Maybe 5 or something is good.

Also, one other thing; I'm considering asking a mod to move this to general. I meant to post it there, posted it here by accident, but I realize here the thread is less likely to simply vanish. Do you guys think the thread fits better here or in general?

Ichigo

Neutral - B - Fully charged, make it last longer and travel father or make it travel faster or more it storeable (choose 1)

F-smash - More endlag

Up-smash - More KB, More startup

Dsh-Attk - 1.0.3.1 Damage and KB, but lots more endlag

Jab - No longer cancelleable, less KB

Some nerfs for my main to make him less obnoxious


Pikachu

Up-air - Better angles for edguarding

F-air - Links better

B-air - Instead of kicking, uses his tail like Squirlte pls, I will main him if Mcleod does this one thing

Only the last one is necessary


Samus

Neutral-B - Less dmg, less KB, smaller

F-air - Decrease hitbox size, less dmg

Thats it


Pit

Fix the multihits


Mario

Decrease run and airspeed

(Hype, but too overbearing imo)


Tails

Make his tails are part of his hurtbox always

Make Robot his down B, and change up-b to a quick vertical rise with hitboxes on his tail

Reduce jumps to 3 to compensate

Up-smash - 9b


Make his weaknesses more prevalent and take away a strength gained from his spin-dash

Luffy

Fix port priority, buff KO power

Time for someone else I use. I have plenty to say here.

(The Star Warrior)

* Make forward throw's angle and knockback properties match those in Brawl. Many of my changes are inspired by Brawl Kirby; I really liked playing him, and he did have cool tools. One of them was his forward throw, very cool combo move.
* Give up air it's Melee properties. Kirby does have plenty of kill moves; however, most of them suffer some big flaw that makes them situational. So, an extra kill move that's relatively fast and non-committal seems like the way to go.
* Boost his air speed greatly. Just as in pretty much every Smash except 64, Kirby has good tools, but his mobility is just.... ugh. It holds him back from his full potential. I always thought his air speed should be a little below Jigglypuff's. (Though that's probably extreme, maybe for balance, around the same as DK)
* Remove the blind spot on down tilt. If used right next to the opponent, then Kirby will whiff. Pretty self-explanatory.
* Decrease the start up and end lag of Inhale. Inhale sucks a** now. One big reason is the abysmal start up and ending lag of Inhale. So, I looked to SSB4 for inspiration, which cut down start up by 4 frames and endlag by 5 frames, which seems like a good amount to give Inhale utility as a mixup.

Well now, time to shake up the rules a wee bit, I think we've given this balance patch enough time to get figured out.

I'm going to update the main post with this s***, but I might as well tell y'all the rules now, so here's a TLDR.

We'll make lists of everyone we think is upper mid-tier and below. Because the standards differ, you can add anybody who you personally think is upper mid or lower to your list. The original post will be updated to include all these details and more for easier clarification.

Okay, I would actually like to try and give this idea an extra shot, especially with version 1.2 coming soon and a lack of other interesting things currently going on, plus summer drawing to an end. This time, I will try to be more consistent with my updates. For instance, my current objective has not changed. Make lists of who you belive to be upper mid or lower, and we will use them to proceed with the next step of this lil thing.

I have some extra Kirby ideas and a few ones for Black Mage.

(The Star Warrior)

Buff 1: Bring back the aerial Melee Hammer. Just please, bring it back. The Brawl one's basically trash since it isn't a rapid multi-hit like Melee's, which can hit 13 times! You could double the damage it deals to make it useful, since it only does 1% per hit in midair in Melee. I've played Melee at Arctic Comic Con, so I know.

Buff 2: Boost the air mobility. Like Sniper Assassin Deluxe said, the current mobility Kirby has draws him away from his true potential. So, why not boost Kirby's mobility in the air? It's a neat idea since he could probably go DK speeds in the air if this happened, and that Kirby's mobility on the ground is perfect as is.

(Master of Dark Magic)

Buff 1: This isn't really a buff, but could we please get a resprite of Black Mage? I haven't always been a fan of the original Black Mage, since he can't even talk, which is why I want Black Mage's appearance to change from the pure magic style Black Mage from the original Final Fantasy in the 80s, to the half magic-half athletic Black Mage we got in Mario Hoops 3-On-3.

Buff 2: Change the victory screen for Black Mage if we get the resprite. Black Mage riding on a broom doesn't even make sense, because we've never seen Black Mage ride anything in his debut game. In fact, the 80s Black Mage didn't even celebrate when he won a battle! He just stood there like a dope asking "Is the battle over yet?". Honestly, this is why I want a Black Mage resprite the most. It might delay 1.2 a bit, but if the resprite for Black Mage happens, at least change the victory screen for him so that it ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE!

This topic is for balance changes.
Demand resprites and aesthetic changes somewhere else plz.

Also no, don’t change Kirby’s hammer, it is already perfect, and Melee’s is literally worthless were as Brawl’s is a great finisher.

melee Hammer could do more damage but like no nockback, the one we have now is the reason why kirby is higher on the tier list.
Also making large will be a nerf, cuz his hitbox would be bigger