Not in high level play. He's one of the most technical characters actually. I find Tails to be one of the hardest characters to play when you're trying to play good, but hey, that's just me.

I originally wasn't going to reply to this but I decided I need to clear up some posts before I go back into hermit mode where I only post IAF stuff.

I really don't get why Lloyd, or even Sheilda is above Fox. Fox is one of the most prominent characters in SSF2 and has a very small arguable amount of bad matchups.
so here's some fox stuff
The main "bad matchups" most people consider for Fox to have are: Lloyd, MK, ZSS, Sheik and Goku.

Let me go further into all of these and why they're not nearly as bad as people put them to be.


This is the main matchup people consider to be really bad for Fox at the level most SSF2 players are at (and even at the relatively top level). Yet no matter what other unoptimal fox mains remark, I do not believe this nearly as bad as construed to be. Sure fox can get zero deathed off of a throw or a gimp both at 0%, but the thing is, Fox can do the same. Fox has the amazing tool of shine which lets him combo Lloyd to death as long as you pick the right moves and combinations of shine and out of shine options and know how to tech chase. Not only this but upthrow upair can kill ridiculously early on platform stages. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Fox can shine spike gimp Lloyd at 0% if he knows the matchup and all the holes in Lloyd's recovery.
Stage Striking
There is NEVER a reason to play on 3ds/FD or ToS in a tournament match vs a Lloyd player (mainly single mains of Lloyd and not dual mains). Not only do flat stages give Lloyd a clear advantage with the way he can control the stage with grave blade (his down b/ground pound esque move) but they also remove approach options using platforms and one really important thing Fox mains hardly utilize, the ability to top platform camp. This is a very hidden thing that rarely any Fox mains do in the current metagame, but after playing TONS of combined hours of matches with Chaos Zero and Lunary (the 2 best lloyds in ssf2 history considered by the majority) I have consistently been able to prove that this is a good option vs Lloyd and completely can turn the matchup around if you have a lead against Lloyd. Basically, if you are unknown to the premise of top platform camping here's a quick explanation:
The Strategy:
1. While invincible or while the Lloyd isn't playing the spacing run away game, I'll play somewhat aggressively and try to get hits or grabs.
2. If the Lloyd is running away to demon fang or grave blade I find the top platform in a tri platform layout stage (yoshi story, dreamland, battlefield) or a moving platform (SV) or the farthest platform from my opponent (stadium) and pretty much just chill on it.
3. If the lloyd attempts to go on to the opposite platform to demon fang camp, I'll make a dash to him and look for an u-air or u-tilt opportunity. If there is none, then I go back to the platform.
4. Eventually the Lloyd catches on and decides he's going to chase me down while I run for the nearest platform. In which case I can do one of four things (really it's more, but this is what I've been doing)
A. Jump -> run off platform-> aerial
B. Jump -> quickdrop/dashdrop through platform (Sometimes this leads to him on the platform and me below it)
C. While he's chasing me, just fool him and go for a pivot grab or aerial.
D. Jump -> side B shorten on platform. Sometimes this leads to:
- Him retreating
- Him following me in which chase I'll go for a shield -> drop shield(about 7 frames in this game, so the combined frame data of dropping shield and the aerial has to below the frame count for the combination of end lag and landing lag of the aerial) -> quick drop -> aerial (need to get more consistent at shield into quickdropping dropping for this)
5. Sometimes I'm already on the platform and I'll do run off or quickdrop -> aerial or quickdrop - > grab or just keep run off -> land back on platform

This strategy is so effective vs Lloyd because of his limited vertical velocity in stages like dreamland, and his inability to catch up to Foxes raw speed on stages like stadium or smashville. Not only this, but usually people are detracted by camping Lloyd due to his tools such as grave blade but utilizing platforms in this method really shows how exploitable Lloyds weaknesses really can be. If you want more confirmation ask Chaos Zero and he will explain our discoveries about this and such in more posts, probably in direct messages.
Using your insane punish game as Fox AND this camping method (combined with the occasional short hop double laser) I don't believe this matchup is even worse than 50:50 for Fox, it just looks and feels awful because both characters have to play so goddamn grimey to have any chance of winning it.



I honestly think Fox wins this matchup and its overblown how bad it is. If you don't rush in with an unsafe aerial on shield near ledge or don'tget lagged to the point where you throw an unsafe move on shield you honestly shouldn't even have a problem as long as you play smart (which often times connection speeds can make difficult for fox players). I like to utilize double lasers not as mainly a damaging tool in this matchup but as a way to effectively put mental pressure and force the sheik to approach or face the accumulated lead gaining in foxes favor. Also foxes punish game can be rediculously good against Sheik, especially if you know how to powershield or reflect the windbox. This is just another reason why I feel like Sheik will heavily fall out of favor once the meta evolves. Fox also has the speed and the priority to run over sheik in neutral. Make sure to minimize unsafe approaches and go out into the neutral with safe things such as run -> (hold left/right to jab out of run)jab -> shinegrab or, running shine grab or running shine into late nair on shield into either another shine aerial or shine grab.

easily 60:40 for Fox if played optimally imo. Also DONT SHIELDGRAB. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FOX PLAYERS YOU HAVE A FRAME 3 MOVE OUT OF SHIELD (COUNTING JUMPSQUAT) THAT COVERS AN ASSANINE AMOUNT OF RANGE WHEN DONE RIGHT (shine out of shield) THERE IS NO NEED TO FAIL A SHIELDGRAB AND GET BACKTHROWN AT 0 AND DIE. PLEASE. THIS IS A PSA FOR ALL FOX MUs. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD #savethosefoxes.



Goku is only 60:40 in Goku's at WORST for fox. I believe fox has enough punishes and Goku's delayed a** ledge snap on his up B (which you can exploit by spamming multishine next to ledge when he tries to snap ledge, or by grabbing ledge then predicting the land on stage by ledge standing and doing a shine upsmash). However for now the Fox metagame neutral and punish game isn't there yet, but when it develops more (like I've been planning to help in and have been helping in the Fox meta advancement) I have no doubt this MU won't be nearly as bad.

zerosuitsamus:
This matchup honestly isn't even that bad unless you get downsmashed near the ledge at all or backthrown at all or upthrow chain- you know what, zss has a lot of setups vs Fox, however her neutral isn't IMPOSSIBLE to beat with Fox. As long as you stay safe and play neutral smartly this MU is only 60:40 in favor of ZSS. If not you're facing easily a 70:30 MU.


F*** this matchup, this is probably the thing most holding back Fox from being top 3 or top 2 in the game imo. This matchup is like 70:30 or worse for Fox. However when played smartly its easy to abuse not so god MK players. But MK players who know what they are doing will abuse and take advantage of every chance and make this matchup a living hell. Foxes only "impossible MU" in a sense imo, even then it's not 90:10.

Wow I talked more than I should have, anyways I hope you take this post into account when revising your tier list lol. Especially the Lloyd MU since fox players (especially soldiersunday who claims that "even if you play that MU as fox out of your mind you can lose to a day 1 lloyd" which is just ridiculous and only shows to show how little we've thought about this MU as a fox metagame community and how shallow our defensive options have been explored.)

I think that you picked pretty easy "bad MU's" to talk about. Pikachu, Zelda, Kirby, Puff (although this is more just me I guess), and even Yoshi are harder than some of the ones you picked. I also find it ironic that you still have half of the MU's as bad.

Do you have any replays vs. Lloyd that you could share? I find it hard to believe that you could viably camp on a platform against uairs and Tiger Blades, and it seems like if you ran to either side it would corner yourself, which often means death against Lloyd.

I think Fox isn't moving up any time soon, as other characters' metas will evolve a lot more than Fox's will and I think people will learn to punish Fox harder and more consistently as time goes on. He has some really bad matchups (although ironically I think MK is even), and even though he has some really good matchups he does struggle against characters that can reliably edgeguard him.

Pikachu is deceptively difficult: Pikachu can destroy stocks just like that with a chaingrab and arguably the best or second-best edgeguarding in SSF2, has the mobility to maneuver around Fox, and Thunder Jolt to control the crucial space that Fox likes to inhabit around the ground while being essentially reflector-proof.

In general, I'd say that Fox doesn't have the anti-floaty game that he's known for in Melee, as usmash and uthrow-uair received crucial power nerfs and lasers got nerfed to hell, and his recovery has a lot fewer mixups than in Melee. I'm certainly not saying that Fox loses badly to Puff or anything, but in my experience it's a difficult MU (it could just be that I don't have the patience to play grimy vs. Puff). Zelda is brutal (Zelda has the priority to stuff your options in neutral, beats you handily in the punish game, and outclasses you offstage).

Another major problem IMO for Fox's performance is stages. Most characters are bad on flat stages or small platformed stages (the deadly trio of BF, WW, and YS has been banned more time than I can count). Fox is bad on both. The flat stages give him susceptibility to chaingrabs that can be pretty brutal and severely limit his neutral options (although ToS is pretty OK because Fox appreciates the recovery mixups), and the small platformed stages (less so BF) make it easy for some characters to force him offstage and kill him, as well as deprive him of the space he needs to optimize his neutral, although he does appreciate the low ceiling on YS.

In general, another really important thing as far as anti-Fox game is simply not relying on shields in neutral as much as people do in this game. Fox has the best shield pressure in SSF2, and I think that if people learned how to punish Fox's nair and bair without trying too hard to shieldgrab or OoS nair (either with dash-dancing or, in the case of Lloyd and Zelda, simply winning the direct challenge), Fox players would have a much tougher time.

One matchup that is undisputedly bad is Samus because of the chaingrab. This is also a major problem for Fox, as if the Samus is playing to win you'll die from a bad nair. That IMO already significantly challenges your Fox placement, as MK, Marth, etc., don't have to deal with that.

Pikachu is deceptively difficult: Pikachu can destroy stocks just like that with a chaingrab and arguably the best or second-best edgeguarding in SSF2, has the mobility to maneuver around Fox, and Thunder Jolt to control the crucial space that Fox likes to inhabit around the ground while being essentially reflector-proof.

In general, I'd say that Fox doesn't have the anti-floaty game that he's known for in Melee, as usmash and uthrow-uair received crucial power nerfs and lasers got nerfed to hell, and his recovery has a lot fewer mixups than in Melee. I'm certainly not saying that Fox loses badly to Puff or anything, but in my experience it's a difficult MU (it could just be that I don't have the patience to play grimy vs. Puff). Zelda is brutal (Zelda has the priority to stuff your options in neutral, beats you handily in the punish game, and outclasses you offstage).

Another major problem IMO for Fox's performance is stages. Most characters are bad on flat stages or small platformed stages (the deadly trio of BF, WW, and YS has been banned more time than I can count). Fox is bad on both. The flat stages give him susceptibility to chaingrabs that can be pretty brutal and severely limit his neutral options (although ToS is pretty OK because Fox appreciates the recovery mixups), and the small platformed stages (less so BF) make it easy for some characters to force him offstage and kill him, as well as deprive him of the space he needs to optimize his neutral, although he does appreciate the low ceiling on YS.

In general, another really important thing as far as anti-Fox game is simply not relying on shields in neutral as much as people do in this game. Fox has the best shield pressure in SSF2, and I think that if people learned how to punish Fox's nair and bair without trying too hard to shieldgrab or OoS nair (either with dash-dancing or, in the case of Lloyd and Zelda, simply winning the direct challenge), Fox players would have a much tougher time.

One matchup that is undisputedly bad is Samus because of the chaingrab. This is also a major problem for Fox, as if the Samus is playing to win you'll die from a bad nair. That IMO already significantly challenges your Fox placement, as MK, Marth, etc., don't have to deal with that.

This got strangely about my Fox. I inform my opinions about Fox from my games, but I do try to recognize my individual frailties (for example, I happen to be bad against Puff, so I can't judge from that to say that the MU is bad for everyone).

I think it's easy to overrate Fox because his meta is so well-developed compared to other characters. We're 90% of the way to a fully optimized Fox, and 30% of the way to a fully optimized Goku. People will learn how to break Fox, and believe me that it can be done. A perfect example of this is Marth v Fox: because people mostly play online, no one is consistent with Marth grab combos on Fox in the same way that people are in Melee. In every MU I see this: sure, no Fox is perfect, but people discover new things about every other character to an extent that they don't for Fox. Hell, people didn't even really think about the chaingrab Samus has until recently, and before that you'd get people saying that Fox won it handily!

Moral of story: Fox has a head start in meta development few other characters have. Because of that, it's easy to assume that the current meta is how the characters will be for all time, or that Fox is the best because so many really good players play Fox. However, I think as the meta evolves people will learn to beat Fox, both by getting better (the big thing IMO in doing that is learning how to challenge Fox's options without relying on OoS options, and also learning to DI Fox properly) and by evolving the metas around their respective characters (chaingrabs, better movement) in a way that, although it's not going to make Fox bottom tier or anything, is going to mean that S tier Fox is out of the question.