did you know that the current f-smash reflects projectiles?

lol wut. nah it wasnt really apparent that it would do that and its never been done to me in a match before


i can kinda imagine the wtf moments that could amount from this, but seriously why is this a thing

besides the rather small area and the commit to using it would make it kinda impractical

im messing around with it right now, and so far ive only managed to have it break projectiles. Under what circumstance does this work? Do i just have the timing wrong? Maybe you mean that it just beats projectiles or something, otherwise the move is really bugged


Maybe if it did actually reflect projectiles it would be a more interesting move to keep in the game, as a fun thing to fool around with and as a surprise reflect for something like charge shot. At that point I think I would like the move better than PM Fsmash

ooooooo that's awkward
guess it was removed lmao
it USED to reflect projectiles though (might be a bug since I don't remember anyone saying they removed it and the reason why)

Yeah please bring that back lol

Do that and disregard my PM Fsmash suggestion

Just gonna pop in really quick and hop right back out because the stuff that's said about Wario recently is starting to worry me. Enough for me to come back and post this real quick.

I know Wario has unfair moves. The moves that I've heard people call jank are Chomp, Dash Attack, Shoulder Bash, Dthrow, Wario Waft. Have fun trying to fight a solid Fox/Marth/Meta Knight/ZSS/Captain Falcon/Jigglypuff/Kirby/Black Mage/Mario player without those moves, because that makes those hard matchups nearly impossible.

People are trying to get Wario nerfed, yet no mention of buffs in compensation for his nerfs has ever been mentioned by those same people. Nowadays Wario is getting as much heat as Marth.

I really hope Wario is a much more solid character by 1.0. Take away the jankness, and buff him up overall so he isn't a terrible character with super-short range, super-slow speed, mediocre recovery, AND super-low kill power. Welfare Wednesday is a dude who's thinking of ways to balance Wario as a smash character, maybe he could make some suggestions.

The only thing keeping him viable in 0.9b is his cheap stuff, and his high combo potential which leads into his cheap stuff. Personally I didn't want to rely on jank in order to win, but I had to against certain characters. Not players, characters.

Winning with Wario isn't fun anymore.

I feel like Wario just needs a way to get in, and then he wouldn't have to camp so much. He doesn't have any safe ways to approach: Shoulder Bash has insane endlag and is one of the least safe moves in the game on shield, fair and nair have poor range, dair has too much lag, bair has too little range, dash attack is decent but also unsafe, SH Chomp is OK but has poor range and is unsafe on whiff, and none of these really link into other moves. If Shoulder Bash was made safer and his air game was buffed he wouldn't just die to swordsmen and zoning characters.

I agree with Doof 100%, try to fight against a character with projectiles and not answering back eachtime with a Shoulder Bash, it's very similar to what would DK be without his DashAttack in the same position, and even with this "unfair" tools, what can Wario do against a MetaKnight when Fair outranges all his aerials,Chomp,DashAttack, and it beats ShoulderBash ?
Wario has the worst grab range in the game so you shouldn't get grabbed at all, it's such a shame since he can get followups from his f-throw and up-throw, but if you do get grabbed past the 80% percent It is fine with me that Wario should be rewarded with the end of your stock. The Waft having that startup and being nerfed, I've began to think of it more or less like a "buff" in the recovery that I can abuse once every 2 minutes or so, than a KO´ing option.


Which is the reason I have stop using him as much.

{I thought I might as well post my notes so other players can see what I came up with throughout my time spent using Wario in this game. Good luck out there, Warios.}



Character Analysis
- Unorthodox Defense Character due to slow speed and short range, yet high combo potential.
- Intermediate Difficulty in terms of competitive usage.
- Heavyweight.
- Small-Medium Frame.
- Very slow Walk and Run Speed.
- Very fast Air Speed.
- One Midair Jump.
- Medium-Large Shield.
- Quick and rather far Shield Roll.
- Air Dodge which seems to improve Air Speed by a tiny bit.
- Spot Dodge lasts for around half a second.


Pros
- Combo strings can be long and are easy to land.
- Handful of exceptional (jank) moves.
- Quick Air Mobility allows for amazing control in the air that grants the ability to air camp.
- Has a Special Grab that can be used in the air.
- Plenty of useful tools for Tech Chase.
- Can Tech Chase from medium-long distances with SideSpecial.
- Good at Gimps.
- Lots of moves with high Priority.
- Edgehogging is very easy.
- Easy Out-of-Shield Options that can be fatal.


Cons
- Very short range.
- Lots of moves are unsafe on shield.
- Very slow speed.
- Shortest Grab Range in the game.
- Mediocre Recovery.
- Can easily get Gimped or Edgehogged.
- Lack of Projectile.
- Lots of bad matchups.


Mixed Blessings
- Has a gimmick move that utilizes Time. The more Time that has passed, the stronger the move will be. The gimmick move can also be used to aid recovery. However, once the move is used, the charge time will reset and Wario will have to let Time pass again in order to use it effectively.
- Wario has many easy Combo Setups. In fact, he has too many! This results in long combo strings, but no powerful combo finishers outside of Wario Waft.
- Being Heavyweight and having a small-medium frame is great for Wario as a Defense Character, but the downside is being slightly more susceptible to combos.


Recovery Options
- Corkscrew
- Shoulder Bash
- Wario Waft


Combo Setups
- Jab
- Dtilt
- Utilt
- Usmash
- Nair
- Sourspot Nair
- Fair
- Bair
- Sourspot Bair
- Sourspot Uair
- Dair
- Fthrow
- Uthrow
- Chomp
- Chomp (ending bite)


Combo Finishers
- Dash Attack
- Uair
- Wario Waft
- Shoulder Bash


Tech Chase Setups
- Dsmash
- Chomp
- Bair


Tech Chase Tools
- Dash Attack
- Dsmash
- Sourspot Nair
- Chomp
- Shoulder Bash
- Wario Waft
- Wario Waft (Level 1) [New]


Out-of-Shield Options
- Nair
- Bair
- Chomp
- Shoulder Bash [New]
- Wario Waft


Unsafe On Shield
- Utilt
- Dtilt
- Usmash
- Dash Attack
- Nair
- Fair
- Bair
- Dair
- Shoulder Bash


Punish Tools
- Dtilt
- Dash Attack
- Shoulder Bash
- Wario Waft


Aerial Mixups
- Chomp (Goes through Shield)
- Dair (Whiffs some anti-airs)


Anti-Airs
- Utilt
- Usmash
- Chomp


Matchup Ratios (Subject To Change)
{Wario comes first in each ratio.}
- vs. Mario | 45:55
- vs. Link | 40:60
- vs. Donkey Kong | 80:20
- vs. Kirby | 30:70
- vs. Samus | 40:60
- vs. Megaman | 30:70
- vs. Fox | 45:55
- vs. Ness | 40:60
- vs. Pikachu | 20:80
- vs. Sonic | 65:35
- vs. Peach | 40:60
- vs. Wario | 50:50
- vs. Zelda | 35:65
- vs. Sheik | 45:55
- vs. Meta Knight | 10:90
- vs. Zero Suit Samus | 40:60
- vs. Bomberman | 45:55
- vs. Captain Falcon | 40:60
- vs. Black Mage | 10:90
- vs. Jigglypuff | 35:65
- vs. Tails | 45:55
- vs. Yoshi | 75:25
- vs. Marth | 30:70
- vs. Lloyd | 35:75
- vs. Chibi Robo | 45:55
- vs. Sora | 40:60
- vs. Ichigo | 50:50
- vs. Naruto | 55:45
- vs. Goku | 35:65


{Example of a Combo Setup that begins a Combo String, with Wario Waft as the Combo Finisher}

In regards to Wario. The problem with buffing him and nerfing him, and most characters, is because all the other characters have at least one terribly good move too. Marth's Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash, Link's Boomerang, Naruto's Clones, Black Mage's Stop and nair, Wario's Dash Attack and Waft...

Since this game is really over the top in general, it can be extremely hard when trying to find a balance. Take all the things us fans have complained about so far, all those things seemed pretty over the top, right? Have you ever wondered "WHAT WERE THE DEVS THINKING?!?" I have alot, and I think I understand it a bit more clearly now.

Those things were over the top because the game is. Not only were many moves buffed up so much they can fight through the speed and combo oriented chaos, but alot of physics were too. Plus this game combines alot of things from Brawl and Melee mechanics to make it even more over the top. Brawl's air dodge system, Melee's L-canceling (to an extent), Brawl's close defensive game, Melee's speed, ect... Both of those games combined can make a pretty hectic metagame. Especially when you add the likes of Sora and Naruto. I'm not complaning, infact I find it amusing these guys are in. (laughs) Since you can combo, most heavyweights needed moves that give them room to breathe and as a result, you get alot of what we see today. Not to mention the projectile problems we've had.

While I honestly think characters like Wario could use work. The devs are getting closer and closer to achieving a balance level alot of other fan-made Smash games lack. I think that's why I prefer this game alot more than the rest.

Wait, this doesn't make sense to me:

* How does giving Melee's combo system and landing lag Brawl's airdodge make the game more hectic? If anything, it would seem to me that wavedashing and wavelanding would make this game slower than Melee.

* I disagree with what you say about every character having a janky move. Boomerang has a lot of opening in between shots, Stop is really fine and nair is also fine, Dash Attack and Waft to me aren't annoying either. I like clones more than other people, but I see that. Dolphin Slash and Dancing Blade are good moves, but it isn't like Marth's best strategy in a game is to spam them.

* How is this game chaotic? It seems to me to be the right speed: combos can zero-death on occasion but not all the time, fast characters feel fast, slow characters feel slow. Certainly Fox, Sonic, and Tails are fast and can create chaos, just like in the other games. But Black Mage, Naruto, Link, Wario, etc., are all defensively oriented characters and are slow in general. It depends on the MU.

* I don't think the devs thought "let's give every heavyweight a combo breaker or a super good defensive option". Heavyweights need something to balance out their weaknesses, but that varies from character to character: DK has range and KO power, Falcon has speed and pressure, and Goku has floating and KK.

I think what he's getting at is that the game is facilitating a wider range of speeds, and trying to accommodate for this is the hectic part. Or I have no idea XD this game isn't chaotic unless you don't know whats going on lol

I dont think any moves were made too good on purpose. I honestly dont see the logic.

To be fair, I think what he means is that there are some many things the devs are trying to add toward the game/gameplay, from so many different sources, that to be trying to incorporate all of those things into the game can cause some problems.

^^^
This.

He gets my point.

I still don't see how, though. How does having elements from many different Smash games and a few original elements make the game more hectic or chaotic.