I refuse to believe the real TheCodeSamurai wrote this.

wait... in which game?


for a much needed nerf; Marths non tipper hitboxes should negate his tipper hitboxes if both hit simultaneously for fsmash. there's no reason why such a strong and fast hitbox should safely cover so much area. dem 2D engine problems.

It's laggy for a general move in neutral: it's not laggy for a kill move that has huge range. It's an important distinction. Fox's usmash is really fast for the power it has, but not really a move to randomly throw out, unlike nair which is much faster.

The tipper hitbox sorta needs redistribution as well. Not only can you hit sufficiently tall characters while standing on top of them, there's a pretty sizable hitbox behind Marth.

Anyone else love getting the Ken Combo online?

Ken Combo for days!

*cough* *cough* MARTH OP *cough* *cough*

true

Can someone give me a quick rundown of the MK mu?

I've played both sides of this, but if you think I'm wrong don't pull any punches.

This MU revolves around spacing and the neutral game, as both of them have pretty good recoveries and are hard to edgeguard. Marth has laggier moves but outranges MK, and Marth has a stronger combo game than most on floaties: all of his throws can lead into stuff, the right hitboxes on his aerials can combo at higher percents, and Dancing Blade is solid percent in any situation. MK should probably stick to the ground: he simply doesn't have the aerial speed or mobility to get to Marth otherwise. Marth should be playing pretty defensively in neutral, with lots of dash-dancing, but with enough rogue Dancing Blades and SH aerials to keep MK on his toes and to punish recklessness. As far as kills go, MK's main tool is probably going to be dsmash, Shuttle Loop, or nair, so DI'ing up is essential to avoid really early deaths. On Marth's side, deadly tippers (you can catch MK on DI traps if you mix up bthrow, dthrow, and fthrow, but you should master dash-cancelling tippers to maximize the usefulness of this), bair, tipper dsmash if you really feel like it, and uthrow -> uair or sharking is what's going to get you kills. I'd stick to the center of the stage and try to keep it, as while Dolphin Slash is pretty hard to edgeguard a good MK can still do it, and a single nair offstage is probably death if you've lost your jump.

Mainly, I think it's about reactions and mindgames. Predict MK's defensive input and neutral game, but react to unexpected approaches and edgeguarding.

CodeSamurai you magnificent man thank you. You think you can give me some help in the sheik mu? Seriously the good sheiks spam dash attack or (if your zero) nair to grab. Spacing nair is easy but whenever I try and punish I get a helping of dash attack or grabs. It's irritating.

Lol I never have that problem. Sheiks problem is thre lack of spacing. Always on top like a bunk bed.

TBH Sheik v Marth is pretty brutal. Don't go offstage. It's crucial to DI Sheik as best as you can to avoid double fairs. DI fair down (you'll live, trust me), uthrow in (so you land sorta on top of Sheik), dthrow in so you go straight up, bthrow up (obvs), nair down as well (nair to fair is a thing), etc. I've killed way too many Marths with dthrow -> fair -> fair, when none of those should hit. Mix up occasionally, but what's the worst Sheik can hit you with on a hard read if you're not offstage?

As far as angles go, Sheik can control directly above her and in front of her well, and her massive bair can control the space behind and above her well. However, Sheik has a hole diagonally in front of her (although beware of ftilt), and dair is not a great option to cover the space below. That's all excellent space to approach with, and it will save you from getting needled or dash-attacked to death. If you try and Dancing Blade and fsmash your way to victory all Sheik has to do is shieldgrab, needle, SH fair, and dash attack, her best options. Try to come in from different angles: SH double fair, full hop aerials, falling nair, etc.

As far as your offensive capabilities go, you do outrange all of Sheik's quick GTFO moves save bair, so you can pressure Sheik really well if you're below her and/or behind her and she can't do much about it. Offstage, as long as you stick to the plan (don't give up edge until Sheik commits, she goes on stage, you punish), you should be pretty much fine. Don't get hit with the windbox, as with Marth's poor horizontal recovery you might die.

As Marth particularly, you might need to transition from thinking about combos (as you might in the Fox MU) to punishes. This isn't /r/smashbros: you don't lose the game if they had a frame out of hitstun. Don't be afraid to bait a nair or something and punish with fsmash or a nair of your own, and don't underestimate the power of just being below Sheik. Sheik has no answer to utilts and the like from the air without her extremely laggy dair or airdodging.

I know this more from the Sheik side, so I'll just conclude with this: as long as you DI correctly and don't let Sheik fair your Dolphin Slash stupidly, Sheik can't do too much (eh, she can still do a lot) to you, and sword > foot. The rest you can figure out.

So how do you guys feel about the Marth changes?

"Marth’s Forward Smash is slower and we made his tippers bigger across the board in hopes that it would promote use of his other attacks"

I personally don't agree with this... At least not the whole thing about increasing tippers across the board. Especially due to the reasoning behind it. I wasn't aware that Marth players weren't using there moves, but okay. Not only that, but I personally thought the tippers on his moves were already pretty generous.

My biggest hope is that they increase some of the start-up and end lag on some of his moves. I always thought it was a bit weird that Marth has such long range, but amazing frame data to accompany it.

I am fine with forward smash due to it getting tippers when it shouldn't.

I do think the Counter should be fixed to where it is consistent instead of the inconsistency when performing the move.

I do think forward throw should be like it is in Brawl to prevent the chain grab. I am all for chain grabs, but on the entire cast or most of it, then yeah.