So, here is the actual issue. Grave Blade is simply a long rectangular hitbox extending to both sides of Lloyd that only affects grounded opponents. However, this is the only condition that must be met for the move to work. Even if the hitbox touches only the tip of a character's head, they will be hit if they are touching the stage. Now, in most cases, this way of coding it works just fine and dandy. Unfortunately, some stages and characters have some unintuitive interactions with it due to platform placement or simple character size, causing Grave Blade to hit when one would not expect it to. Here are some examples: http://i.imgur.com/nqmDr2G.gif

^ This
This is why it is difficult to tech when Lloyd uses GB, as the hitbox will hurt you before you actually tech (you "touch" the ground as you tech and the rectangular hit box gets you before you actually get invincibility frame).

The jumping technique is not always viable when there is input lag, especially when playing online.

And the flinch thing.. The same problem existed with megaman's buster having the flinch on the uncharged shot, so they took away the flinch, and now it is barely used as it cannot be used competitively to poke damage at opponents due to its slow travel speed. This is unlike other projectiles that cause no flinch like fox's laser, where it's speed makes it viable to poke that small amount of percentage away. The main thing i see others use the demon fang for is the "get down safely" technique, when they are launched above the stage and throw it to cover their landing that opponents might be trying to camp on. For megaman, his "Get down safely" technique was his mega buster when he had Beat Call activated, as it kept enemies at bay while he tried to land. Now, it is useless. My suggestion is to have flinch on Demon Fang if it is doubled; and only the second fang will cause flinch if the first hits, kindof like a combo reward for landing both fangs into your enemy.

I think Fangs causing flinch is absolutely fine. They're a really cool projectile with awesome hit confirms and unique stage control that maintain counterplay possibilities. The only reasonable nerf that I could see is removing the sword hitbox just to make them a bit easier to punish if misspaced.

That and that the hit stun is #all2real and should be toned down some, since, as it stands now, is an automatic combo starter that can hit opponents all the way on the other side of the stage and can be brought out to hit opponents who are just landing on the ground, even through techs.

Eh, it's already an extremely punishable move. I think it's ok to let Lloyd get combos off of it. Besides, with proper DI one goes up instead of towards him, so cross-stage hit confirms are possible but not guaranteed.

It's still janky. They should just make like like DK's down b.

If the move was ever was close as DK's down-B , no one would even use it.
'cuz it takes a lot of frames before it actually hits.

the hitbox bug notwithstanding the move is fine

I think the range should be the whole length of whatever platform he is on. However, this would be a problem for diagonal platforms like on Hueco Mundo. In this case, it should only hit those people on that diagonal section.

Basically, you have to be on the same line as the hit, think of an octagon: you'd only be hit if you and the blade were both on the same straight line; you can't get hit if you on a different line on the octagon.

This would solve the cross platform hits, like across the gapped platforms on battlefield or on the Naruto map.

That would be so useless tbh.

Also, why do people keep asking for more and more Lloyd nerfs? If you STILL cant counter him with whatever characters/strategies/etc you use then I don't think SSF2 is a game for you.

No Lloyd still needs nerfs in places. Just Grave Blade isnt one of them.


Lagless Up B aerials is the biggest problem IMO

People keep asking because it is a problem that needs to be fixed. In my honest opinion Lloyd is like the faceroll character in the game -- you can roll your face across the keyboard repeatedly and win.

Finally somebody posts something that I agree with.

A lot of characters have little to no lag in up b aerials (Naruto, Ichigo etc)



Pretty much every good player I've watched/played against has some trick or two to easily counter Lloyd. Try beat a top player like, oh I dunno, Sorabotics, with Lloyd and that faceroll mindset and see how that works out for you.

I'm not saying he's a super tactical, hard to use character. But he's also not some braindead moron, broke character either. I've discovered a lot of Lloyd tech that makes him so much more interesting of a character than people take him for.

It's like all y'all forgot what v0.9a Lloyd was like smh.

This is not an excuse for Lloyd. Lagless recovery moves like these are a UNIVERSAL PROBLEM, and Lloyd's is one of the most problematic.


Its one of those arguments that I see entirely too often "X character has this broken move, why cant Y character have this broken move too?"


This isn't Brawl Minus please stop that.