Yeah, I totally get that. The thing is that all of Marth's relevant actions versus Puff in Melee come with a certain degree of commitment. Puff's mobility, like you said, allows her to bait these actions out on occasion and punish them. (It's also worth noting that despite this, Marth still has the edge in the matchup.) Conversely, Lloyd's rather decent frame data, combined with Goku's relatively lackluster mobility, means that Lloyd doesn't really have to commit to anything that he doesn't know will hit. It's certainly still possible to bait his moves out and punish them, but with the minimal windows available and the difficulty of actually forcing punishable actions from Lloyd, I think that those punish scenarios stray into the realm of better player rather than winning matchup.

Now, I am not at all arguing that Goku cannot win this matchup. Not in the least. Players are only human, after all, and mistakes will happen. However, I find it an odd decision to label Goku-Lloyd not only as a good matchup, but a dominant matchup in favour of the character that has to rely on being controlled by the better player in order to win.

DK gets comboed really hard here, up-b into nair.

Also, has anyone noticed that if you do some up-bs from the initial dash animation they go way further? From what I know it works on Tails and Lloyd, but I need to research that.
EDIT: Yep, works only on Tails and Lloyd.

Relatively lackluster mobility?

Do you mean air acceleration? Goku has above average mobility if not one of the best.

There are more optimal strings than Up B into Nair, but thats not what makes DK a pain in the a**. Lloyd just struggles a lot with killing at higher percentages, and DK being the heaviest char in the game doesnt exactly make things easier. DK also comboes Lloyd hard, kills him soon in exchange and even has the range to go up against him, not to mention Spinning Kong being, well, Spinning Kong.

Tails gets the boost even after the initial dash, its quite useful to approach at times when the other player doesnt see it coming. Dunno about Lloyd, but in theory every character should get some sort of boost via Jump Cancel Up B unless Im missing something.

Most characters' up-b doesn't grant momentum at first or makes them not leave the ground, so jumpcancel does not work on them.

Just me who thinks that is Lloyd is Top Tier, so is Sora? Honestly, I don't understand why Sora is considered crap, and Lloyd is considered amazing. I think both characters are really good. Their weaknesses come with their recovery, but their strengths come with their insane combo ability (Sora's is better) and edge-guarding ability (Lloyd's is better). They both have good reach, disjointed hit boxes and strong finishers (With Lloyd being a bit stronger).

Personally, I think that in V0.9b, Lloyd and Sora are equal and I think they are high tier, not top. I'm aware that a lot of people disagree, but whatever.

Lloyd has great mobilty (7th fastest ground speed, good airspeed, JC Tiger Blade for stuff), excellent frame data and an amazing neutral game in form of his aforementioned high speed both in mobility and attacks, good range and priority on baiscally all of his moves, great projectile and (kinda) Grave Blade. His combos are actually superior to Sora´s imo because they are much more DI ignoring and much easier to perform. Sora on the other hand has a rather poor neutral (Sora mains are free to add, but for short: Lacking mobility, projectile with high commitment, low range for a sword user, terrible priority) and struggles a lot more in KOing. Granted, Lloyd has that problem as well, but Sora struggles on a whole other level. The only advanatage I see Sora having over Lloyd is recovery, and even that is arguable, considering Lloyd can cover himself for pretty much the entire time thanks to Tiger Blade Cancel (which reduces Landing lag to absurd levels I might add). Lloyd also is a much better edgeguarder (arguably Top 10 in the entire game) with Beast, Sonic Thrust and Fair alone beating Sora in that aspect.

tl;dr: >>>

This is true.

Perhaps manoeuverability is a better-suited term, then. Goku's unremarkable air traction certainly factors into that. The guy is fast, but his speed requires rather heavy commitment to a single direction for relatively extended periods of time. He doesn't have the air traction or the initial dash necessary for the kind of micro-spacing that Puff makes use of in Melee.

or Wario in Brawl.

Yeah I noticed that as well. That's where the likes of Kaio-Ken and float help him in that regard to give him better control in the air. Well I think its mostly float.

Sora has awful killpower, a really buggy moveset and a pretty awkward grab.
Hes essentially Lloyd with 0 kill power, which is enough to make him bottom tier.

As for the Goku Lloyd argument, I'll get back to you when I have more time. All I'm gonna say for now is those are some really dumb points lol.

I totally agree that Goku has to commit. Something like SH dspec will take you across all of a stage, and if it doesn't work you might find yourself in a bad spot. Goku has the float, but turning on a dime isn't easy.

However, Goku can be fast. Lloyd can't just spam aerials like he can against some characters, as a well-timed approach will cut through that quickly and from a large distance away. Goku also has a workable dash-dance that he can use as well. All in all, I think Goku can clear distance respectably well, and I really do think that their punish games make up the difference.

That's like saying, at what point is Fox able to shine bair MK? At that point, he was the better player, not character.

KK has a pretty decent hitbox + Lloyd's engages and aggro player isn't the hardest to predict. On top of that, KK is one of Goku's most important moves, you can't just make an exception to it because you have to put in effort to use it correctly.



This point somewhat makes sense but keep in mind Goku can use his projectiles to both space and engage, not just for neutral game. Also, I don't remember saying Lloyd has to play to Goku's projectile game lol.



Float does make Grave Blade useless. If Lloyd's Down B does not affect Goku, then it means it's useless.
Goku doesn't have to whiff grounded moves in the first place, nor land unsafely. MU analysis assumes both players are of equal skill and know what they're doing. A decent Goku would know roughly how long he can be in float for. Furthermore, Goku's aerials, including when floating, are great (especially nair). It's not hard for him to engage with a out-of-float nair or just bait Lloyd with certain aerial whiffs.

Let's not forget the great knockback Goku has against Lloyd at around 50-70% range. The fact that Lloyd already struggles to recover at that point alone means that Goku has a serious advantage against Lloyd.

Goku destroys Lloyd. Kaio Ken, aerials, decent/good combo game, great recovery + Lloyd's bad recovery means that Lloyd has an awful time. All Lloyd really has against Goku is certain engages and combos. Lloyd has a hard time killing Goku (unless Goku is stupid enough to float near ledge, like you mentioned).

Fox actually has tools that force poorer positions on Meta Knight, primarily his amazing speed complemented by generous hitboxes. Goku doesn't really have that on the same level against Lloyd.

I'm not making an exception. Kiao-Ken is one of Goku's most important moves, of course, but he's not going to land it raw very often against any competent opponent, much less a competent Lloyd. That means that he has to use his other moves and movement options in order to transition into Kiao-Ken.

But... spacing and engaging is exactly what the neutral game is. Maybe we have different definitions of what constitutes the neutral? I'm defining it as the state in which neither player has significant positional advantage, where the players are vying for control of space and an opportunity to land a hit.

I don't think that you said those words exactly, but you did sayso I thought it appropriate to address that point.

Well yeah, haha. I'll grant you that Grave Blade is bad if Goku is actively floating. : P That's not what I meant, though. Goku cannot stay in the air forever, and, as you said, matchup analysis assumes that both players know what they are doing. Any Lloyd worth his salt is going to know how long float lasts, and Grave Blade certainly affects Goku when he's on the ground. Every time Goku jumps, that becomes an opportunity for Lloyd to force a bad landing and punish it with Grave Blade.
Goku has some pretty awesome aerial stuff, absolutely. The problem, again, is that he either has to commit hard to a movement choice because his aerial maneouverability is hot garbage or spend another resource, such as double jump, to save himself from a punish if he misses.

Well, sure, but that's kind of like saying that Ganondorf has great knockback and edgeguarding against Fox in Melee around 50-70% percent. That is most certainly true, but it doesn't mean that he wins the matchup. Obviously the case of Goku versus Lloyd in SSF2 is different in that the matchup is closer, but the same counter-argument applies. Punish game isn't everything, especially if one character is consistently outclassing the other in the neutral and thus has more opportunity to transition to punishes.

"Certain engages and combos" are all Lloyd really needs, because his control of the neutral is worth so much. I would also argue that Lloyd's confirms out of stuff like Nair, Fangs and and Tiger Blade aerials into his harder-hitting moves have yet to really be explored and optimized. Those are things that I still have to play around with myself, but I'm fairly certain that they are very scary, especially for someone with as large a frame and ideal a combo weight as Goku.

I'll take your points into consideration and re-analyse the matchup. However, I'm still 100% confident that KK, recovery, combos and the knockback that Goku has is enough to beat Lloyd, especially considering the fact that Lloyd just cannot recover against a lot of Goku's moves.