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Balance philosophy 
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:26 pm
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Looking at the current tier list many are outraged with how some characters are handled. Characters like
:samus: Samus and :link Link being so high up the tier list which begs the question? Who should get the buffs and at what point and who should get the nerfs and at what point? When you have defensive characters being the best character in the game then call you call this game a fighting game? Look at other games like TF2 where if you have made the Spy the best class in the game then it.

A) You longer are the spy class and
B) The game is no longer TF2

When approaching how you buff a character or nerfing other one has to ask where should they be placed. In the official smash games the top tiers are offensive characters with some other sprinkled in. However in Brawl the entire meta revolved around camping the ledge with :metaknight: meta knight. What is smash needs to be answered before approaching these character if not then we'll reach something no one wants to touch.

Plz share your balance philosophy and how you will approach balancing.


Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:35 pm
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While it's fine to have moves that are very good, they must have some sort of counterplay. For example, a reason why Samus is poorly designed is because of her N-Air. Her N-Air comes out on frame 1, has a decent disjointed hitbox that CANNOT be traded with, has electric properties which increases hitstun, no landing lag, and a lot of follow-ups. Or her Down-B which has an insane amount of momentum, adds a hitbox for when Samus retreats, shortens her hurtbox, and doesn't have enough endlag to be punishable and can technically be used for movement techs or near infinite recoveries. Things like this needs to be fixed as there is NO counterplay on those moves whatsoever. And what I'd do to Samus outside of her two broken moves are to make her back-throw a viable kill throw but not as good as it was before so Samus can kill relatively consistently at low percents. But to make that less low-risk medium/high-reward I might increase endlag on her grab by a little or startup, but mostly endlag. This would make her grab game have some sort of threat but it isn't something you can abuse. I'd also make her missiles NOT land-cancellable and have a little more endlag so it would not make the opponent constantly have to shield everything and play defensively. As that is hard to actually counterplay as reflectors don't work. Outside of those things, Samus would then be pretty balanced. Sure some may argue that her charge shot kills pretty early. However she now would lack opportunities to get those charge shot setups with a nerfed Z-Air and laggier grab + it's harder for her to charge now as her defensive/zoning game is less overwhelming overpowered.

I'd do a lot of stuff like that with top tiers and fix most of the things that shouldn't exist in general while making everyone counterplayable but still have tools to compete with higher tiers.

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Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:46 pm
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What about the low tiers? Do any of them deserve to be high tier or that should remain mid or low tier? How do you make luffy balance and how much can you nerf a character without changing there core gameplay?


Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:25 pm
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Luffy is an interesting case. The only way to make him a truly balanced mid tier or upper mid tier is to fix port priority. Then because of that Luffy would be more consistent at tournaments and will alone make Luffy a less bad character from the getgo. His extended hurtbox problems are justified but I feel like some armor on some of Luffy's moves that has him extend his arms completely like side-b should have a tiny bit of armor. Probably like around 3%-5% so Luffy doesn't get hit by a jab at the opposite endof the stage then flinch. This would overall make Luffy just have to take less risks in general. I'd also clean up some of Luffy's frame data so he isn't always a sitting duck and decrease startup on B-Air, N-Air, Side-B/Neutral-B, Down-Tilt, Up-Tilt, etc. along with decreasing a little bit of Endlag overall and cleaning up the active frames. One last thing I'd add to Luffy is to make his kill power more consistent so his punish game actually has reward once he wins neutral. I'd definitely fix his forward-throw to be a better kill throw and maybe make Up-Air kill better and have Down-Throw be adjusted so Luffy has a 50/50 kill option. Then Luffy would be somewhere around upper mid tier with that.

No character deserves to be low tier. However some characters like Sandbag would be fundamentally low tier without mechanic changes or reworking the character overall.

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Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:50 pm
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Samus Nair is not frame 1.

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Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:50 pm
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tson wrote:
Samus Nair is not frame 1.


*Frame 0*

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Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:05 pm
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I don't really have that much to say but I think Sonic's bad frame data in the Smash games and SSF2 isn't that nice. He's not supposed to be fast in just movement but attack as well. Another thing is his Side-B which is a bit too situational to use frequently. I'd either have a new side-b like the Sonic Wave I mentioned in the Sonic Character Community or at least giving us back the ability to charge it for a horizontal recovery, making the sweetspot actually kill at high percentages, and maybe reducing landing lag to make it less risky.

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Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:51 am
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Actually the issue with Sonic isn't his frame data. His frame data is actually quite decent eventhough it isn't as good as his mobility. The issue with sonic is how he plays like a bait and punish character except he doesn't have a punish game. Sonic actually needs better follow-ups and to have port fixed then have his priority fixed so his moves properly trade. Then Sonic can actually rushdown his opponents properly and not get outwalled 24/7. I'd beef up some of his hitboxes to be slightly better and make his moves just safer on shield in general though. I guess shaving some landing lag from Sonic's moves may help. But the new priority changes in the future will greatly benefit sonic.

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Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:57 am
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Ok we're getting off topic and into an area the community has large opinions about. What this post is, isn't a balance patch idea as many other places here cover that. This here is to better see how this game should be balanced. Should Sonic be the best character in the game or should he remain as from experience from art magic a mid tier? Should we focus the meta on disjoints and balance around that? Can characters with weakness like a weaker neutral become top tier?

This has no right or wrong answer. This is a place, where I see, an inside of the idea of a player and how to approach this game.


Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:22 am
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Indignation6 wrote:
Ok we're getting off topic and into an area the community has large opinions about. What this post is, isn't a balance patch idea as many other places here cover that. This here is to better see how this game should be balanced. Should Sonic be the best character in the game or should he remain as from experience from art magic a mid tier? Should we focus the meta on disjoints and balance around that? Can characters with weakness like a weaker neutral become top tier?

This has no right or wrong answer. This is a place, where I see, an inside of the idea of a player and how to approach this game.


Btw sonic was never mid tier to begin with and many people find him to be bottom 5. We should just focus on everything having a method of counterpla for characters that are too good and for lower tiered characters to receive changes that helps them compete with everyone else to make sure that there are no overwhelming bad matchups for anyone which would have less overall dominance in a certain attribute and make the top tier to low tier difference a lot smaller. Fixing port priority would fix the dominance of range and then the meta game would have no dominance over certain archetypes where anyone can at least compete well.

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Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:35 am
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Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:10 pm
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^ what does that have to do with balance?

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