Goku is easy combo food, large target, predictable moves and recovery, easy to edgeguard, worse than float game than Peach, get Rekt by people with decent projectiles and superior range, mediocre combo ability, most moves lack range, and kioken isn't as much of a threat as you make it out to be.

And do you honestly believe he's better or has better MU's than Sheik or DK?

Also Peach has way more KO power than Ness like 70:30

Peach can't KO for s***, while Ness has solid aerial kill moves and good smashes. I fail to see how this makes it 70:30.

Point by point:
* The fact that Goku is an easy-to-combo character is his main weakness.
* His moves aren't predictable, and he has good mixups in recovery, with an aerial stall, a teleport, and floating.
* His float game is worse than Peach, but Peach has a monster float game, so this is still a plus for Goku.
* He has fewer problems with disjoints than many characters due to his mobility and some of his attacks have good range, and he does well against projectiles due to his aerial mobility.
* Kaioken is monster. A good Goku player can take a stock off of a single hit with Kaioken, which makes Goku extremely good at comebacks and makes him a force to be reckoned with if he's at a high enough percent to avoid combos into kill moves and you can't kill him.


In general, I think Goku suffers from problems with the fact that people aren't always online making a name for him: most Gokus online are crappy and spam dair super predictably.

I think Sheik and DK are both better than Goku, but they should move up and Goku shouldn't move down. I think he does better than every character below him besides those two.

Tbf, most characters are interchangeable when it comes to A- and B+ (only Ness should stay in B+)

Also, the gaps in this tier list are really small. Btw, A- and B+ were the hardest tiers for me to make.

I like this tier list a lot, but can you explain your reasoning for having Naruto over Marth and Fox?

Naruto has an excellent zoning game, but he is distinguished from other zoning characters (BM excepted) because he also has a good close-range game. He has one of the best kill moves in the game (Rasengan), which is one of the few good kill moves that you can land raw without a hard read. He has great pressure against opponents that have trouble approaching him. He has good, high-percent throw combos and utilt combos that link into his best kill moves (Rasengan, dtilt, smashes, dspecial, bair, etc.).

I disagree with him over Marth and Fox, but I think you would understand why people think he's good. I think his main problem is couple hard counters: Bomberman can force him to approach and kill early with semispikes, Fox can rush him down and overwhelm him with the giant discrepancy in their close-range games, and I also think he struggles against Zelda. He has a good matchup against MK because transcendent priority isn't your friend against Naruto, and he does well against characters that have poor approach games.

I feel like Naruto is a little bit too high maybe. His options are pretty good both on the offensive and defensive, I can agree with that, but I feel like one of his problems relies on the fact that he has a pretty low priority overall on most of his moveset, which makes the MU for some characters really simple (B Mage s*** on every projectile that Naruto has and most of his moves) and his recovery it's not really what I would like to call pretty "safe". He definitely deserves being on the higher part of the list, but I feel like being fourth place might be a little bit too much.

This is a pretty good list. I might argue that Ichigo and Sora merit higher placings, but overall it's pretty solid.

The one significant issue I have is Zelda's placing. I may be alone in this, but I honestly feel that she is a mediocre character that belongs somewhere near the bottom of B tier. Granted, she is a mediocre character that hits like a truck, but mediocre she remains. Zelda lacks the tools necessary to force openings from her opponents, relying instead on opposing players to make errors on which she can capitalize. Her projectile is frankly pretty awful for anything other than covering her recovery or pestering off-stage opponents, her movement is sluggish when compared to the rest of the cast and she lacks the options necessary for meaningful agression. I understand that she is meant to be a defensive character, but that doesn't work very well when her options are sluggish and easy to bait out. Basically, Zelda is good at three things: KOs, harsh combos into KO moves and recovery. However, she is held back by an atrocious neutral game, which costs her important matchups against the top tiers.

It could be that I'm partially blinded by how decisively Lloyd beats Zelda, and she likely fares better in some other matchups, but I feel like she still loses most of the important ones.

Rip my main.


We need a matchup chart up in here yo

In the year 20XX.....
we finish our matchup chart for this game.

Making a MU chart when Beta is "close" to release might be work that just wouldnt pay off in the end... Same reason why most people havent figured out the frame data for every single mobe in the game. Its just a lot of work that could become obsolete before its even finished/shorty afterwards.

MU Charts take forever: 406 matchups to discuss. At this point, it's better to just spend time working on fundamentals and keeping a watchful eye towards Beta and be ready to pick up the new characters and dominate when the game comes out. Think about how much of an impact the three additions this demo had to the metagame: Isaac, Bowser, G&W, and whatever else there may be will greatly impact the metagame.

Yeah, I definitely agree with all the points you made in Naruto's favor. I still consider him a high-tier character, but I would put him at 6 instead of 4 on this list.

Just dropping in to say there is no point making a tier list that isn't based off of consistent offline play. But it's a nice attempt, regardless.

tier lists represent the meta.
the meta is inconsistent online play.
the tier list represents this.

I guess I don't see the point of making a tier list for a completely inconsistent state of play. Anyways, I agree with most of the list. Lloyd and MK are the most free chars in the game. Pika is also free, but in a completely different way. My biggest gripe is Goku ahead of the likes of DK and Sheik. That's pretty absurd. He's low tier imo.