Are Fox and Falco being treated like they were in Melee?

He has always struggled against characters that can control the space directly above the ground, but he has good priority nonwithstanding dumb transcendent projectiles. In v0.9b he could muscle through projectile walls with his reflector and priority quite effectively. He has never been good at playing the slow game, but he's never had to either, and when he has he usually just uses lasers to force approaches.

I also don't think tournament games this early in a meta are a really good resource for seeing how a matchup plays out: we just don't have enough experience at the game collectively to say much about a matchup right now. I mean, at this point in v0.9b people thought Naruto was really good because no one had figured out how to play against him: the same thing seems likely to happen to many characters in Beta.

Which could mean Sandbag and Yoshi are hidden top tiers while Falco and Isaac are actually low tiers...

But, you'd never know unless you can time travel

Fuk no, we all know that Kirby is top tier .

I don't see why everyone's putting so low. he still has good kill power, with his Up smash killing characters around 15% later than Fox's, and even if it doesn't kill, Up smash true combos into thunder, even if pika has to walk a little to account for DI. As a dual - main, I believe Pika has one of the best matchups vs. spacies (and the other fastfallers). his up air and nair both slay the spacies side B's. Thunder, up tilt, his projectile, and especially bair eliminate options on the firefox/bird too. Once they're offstage, it's pika's game. Also, chaingrabs exist. Spacies are very relevant in the meta so that alone should make him low A to high B tier. On midfallers, pika can true combo d-tilt into itself from 0-100%, chasing the opponent across the stage and hitting them before they touch the ground to tech. Once they get to the ledge, he can carry them off the stage with nair and up air. Floaties are probably his weakness tho, as he has to rely on spacing, poking, and up air juggles.

Tbh I place him oftenly in mid to mid-high tier character. He basically is just Melee Pikachu with a project m/64 backair lol, except his neutral is a bit better.

When you try and join a discussion that's 18 pages in...

I'm sorry if any of the following things got mentioned, but to make a good tier list, you should consider how good a character is against all other characters. Then you consider each character's popularity. The characters that can compete well against popular characters get a higher place on the tier list.

Something we should do is create a chart of matchups in SSF2, like this one made for Melee:
Then we should talk about which characters are more popular, especially in the competitive scene. After that, we can create a tier list based on the data we collect.

It seems like a lot of this topic just talks about how good each character is, without actually talking about match ups, popular characters, and meta game performance. I apologize if I'm wrong, but 18 pages of a topic is really just a huge TL;DR. Anyway, just sharing my thoughts.

I've started making a chart like the one shown above.
I'm going to pit each character against every other one by setting 2 level 9 CPUs and having them fight until I have scores for each matchup.
The matches are 10 stock battles without time limits. The data in the graph will be the score each character earned in their battle against the other character.
I will run trials multiple times if there is a high number of SDs involved on one side or the other.
Now, I don't have faith in the computer's skill, and there are some characters that computers just don't know how to play (eg Jigglypuff), and of course computer strategy doesn't mimic meta game, unless we talk about Ness (zing!), so the actual resulting chart will certainly be open to debate, and won't count as a definitive tier list, only a reference from which we can derive a tier list from.

I will post the matchup graph once it's finished, which might take a while, since 10 stock matches take about 20 minutes, and I have to do 780 matches to collect all the data.
BTW this is my 100th post.

The thing is, we can't all agree on how good/bad each MU is. Some MUs can be very debatable as well since the meta is still developing. We should wait about half a year or more to make an universal character chart. For now, we should just share our personal MU characters for individual characters

Matchup charts take ages to make. You have 38 characters, for 38 x 37 = 1406 matchups, ignoring the dittos. Most of them are heavily debatable. If we did it now, we'd just have to redo half of them in half a year's time anyway.

It's actually just 780 matchups, since the algorithm to figure this out would be 1+2+3 etc. Look up partial sum series.

Oh lol I forgot that double-counts every matchup. Divide by 2, and you get 703. That sounds right?

Here is my tier list (Feel free to roast my tier list&tell me your opinions)

LMFAO this is some SmasherLink level s***

My SSF2 Beta Tier List! (I Suck At Making Tier Lists So Don't Judge)

http://imgur.com/gallery/eUj50