First off welp forgot about bbm lol, drop him into C tier



For tails, his side b spam is nice but his combo game is weak and easy to escape from. I feel like he has a lot of bad match ups too, like any other char who has great aerials beats him. I haven't seen too many Tails yet, and haven't played much of him myself though so my ranking of him may be diff then how someone with more Tails experience see's him.

I feel like Luigi's neutral is overrated and he can rack up your % but he can't kill you for s***

?

Here are some of my Reasonings for some of the more talked about future placements.

Luffy: Luffy REALLY lacks disjoint in his moves which is coupled by his poor frame data and approach options which in turn gives him a not very good neutral. He honestly is a sitting duck whenever he tries to commit to any of his moves and he loses out to characters that can get inside of him or characters with great disjoint. And it doesn't help that Luffy really lacks an answer to shields outside of potentially command grabbing the opponent which can be seen from a mile away and due to it not being disjointed, it can be punished from afar. And it doesn't help that Luffy doesn't have a projectile so he can safely use a move without being punished from afar. Yes, his combo game is fantastic... but again, so does pretty much all the cast.

Kirby: Kirby has poor mobility and poor range simply put, and he gets walled out by most characters with projectiles which is really an issue for kirby in neutral and in order for him to approach. Sure he has a fantastic combo game, but so does most of the cast tbh. And it doesn't help that kirby has poor survivability meaning he will be punished greatly when he loses the neutral which he likely will.

G&W: He may seem suprisingly high, but he honestly is pretty underrated. He has fantastic disjointed hitboxes on most of his moves along with having quite a lot of active frames on his moves. He has FANTASTIC air mobility thanks to his great air decelleration making it easy to empty hop opponents in neutral and to catch those off guard. He has a great punish game, a great throw game, fantastic edge guarding game, and a fantastic recovery.

Pikachu: I don't really see why people are placing the yellow mouse so low. Pikachu possesses one of the best neutrals in the game along with quick attack cancelling allowing him for tons of mobility mixups and can even be used for setting up combos. Pikachu still possesses one of the best edge guarding in the game along with having fantastic frame data, approach options, and lots of mobility options in general along with having a rather consistent kill power thanks to his great kill throws.

If anyone else wants to know about some of my other placements, I am very open to explaining my explanations.

Would you mind explaining Sora's placement?

Sora possesses great disjointed range, suprisingly decent frame data, he has great kill confirms thanks to his new tools in beta. He has great tools for edge guarding and lots of damage racking power in general once he wins in neutral along with Sora having a decent juggle game and lots of capabilities of zoning out his opponents and even stopping approaches. However his rather linear recovery does hold him back a bit.

I guess, explain Lloyd, Tails, Jiggs and Yoshi if you wouldn't mind?

Thanks for your opinion. But the thing with kirby not being the one approaching is that it'll hurt him in a lot of disjointed matchups in general. Since a character like Waddle Dee at least has disjointed options and is better with pressuring which is something kirby lacks. And just because a character got nerfed doesn't always necessarily mean they should automatically be placed lower. But the main thing that Pikachu has that most characters with linear range have is mobility. And Pikachu is designed as a rushdown character which gives pikachu a really easy time to get in. And he fares much better against swordfightrers compared to other characters with poor range since he can easily hit the swordfighter before the swordfighter hits him generally more along with his quick attack shenanigans allowing for a safe way to approach.

Lloyd would be in a similar case to Sora for having suprisingly decent frame data and great disjointed range which is a fantastic combination. But he simply does have a better recovery compared to a character like Sora due to his hitboxes on his recovery along with having generally better options for recovering. And Lloyd seems to do a bit better with rushdown from what I've seen.

Yoshi pretty much lacks a third jump even with Up-B which means he pretty much is dead once he gets hit out of his double jump, while his edge guarding game is great, he honestly has issues with actually having kill confirms on his moves. And whats worse is that Yoshi is practically combo meat and can be chaingrabbed with ease making it easy for Yoshi to go off stage and given his recovery... yeah.

Tails has fantastic mobility, has the best command grab in the game, fantastic edge guarding, can serve as a rushdown character rather well, has decent kill setups on his moves, and he can approach very well along with Tails having what seems to be great frame data as well.

Jigglypuff similar to Kirby has linear range but with an even worse ground game which causes her to have to be in the air at all times. And she gets thrown like a ping pong ball all the time, Jigglypuff also requires commiting to her moves like A LOT which is not good for a character as light as her. And that pretty much creates inconsistency which is not good when a character wants to do well in a tournament. But the fact that she has better options in neutral compared to kirby does place her a spot higher.

But thanks for asking. I am very open for discussion and debate.

I think your tier list, by and large, is missing why exactly people should be in certain tiers. I just can't reconcile Jiggs, who can true combo rest and has incredible edge guard tools is THAT low, but someone like Sora with the worst neutral-air hitbox ever can be high-mid.

ZSS, Zelda, Lloyd, Luigi should definitely be higher, and DK, Mario, Bandana should be lower.

ZSS: Just as good as ever but better hitboxes, one of the the best Nairs in the game, and a recovery that is difficult to edge guard/edge hog when played correctly. Disjoints, long limbs, good finishes and a MUCH better up smash from 0.9b.

Zelda: Still the best defensive character on the roster, but toned back (as she should be); should be in the high B, low A range.

Lloyd: Combo power is still high, gained kill power, his kit/aerial options simply make more sense and are more intuitive to use. His recovery got waaaay better with Tempest (along with edge guard and finishing off the side). Combined with good overall speed and grabs, he still has the tools he always had to compete at the top.

Luigi: His movement both on ground and in air is towards the top due to 1-frame dash cancel momentum conservation. He combos really well with great throws, a very solid projectile that lasts forever, and good recovery in most circumstances. His difficulty killing outside of smash attacks/edge guard/UpB confirms keeps him in low-mid A tier, but his ability to wrack damage and play defensive and aggressive gives him a big advantage against a good chunk of the cast that expresses a weakness to at least one of those styles. Stage picks can make or break him, however.

DK: Outclassed by others in the high tiers. He's not bad, just not the best. High C, low B since he has a linear recovery (slower than Bowser), with some slower, more awkward hitboxes all around. Plus, he has a bit of trouble killing outside of platforms and smash attacks.

Mario: Better than he's been, but as an all-arounder with short limbs, he will always struggle against the highest power level of characters.

Bandana: He's good, but not that good. His projectile is slow and predictable, and like Kirby, he's rather light which is a huge issue when contending with characters like Fox, Falco, Bowser who will kill you at 60-70% reliably. He makes up for this with a great combo kit with interesting ledge options, so he's A-tier for sure, but not top.

However Jigglypuff still has issues properly and safely approaching the opponent before she can even utilize her combo setups. The Reason why Melee Jigglypuff used to be so high was due to the fact that she had one broken tool that could be used to space and zone out the characters, along with the properties of Melee beneffiting Jigglypuff very much. But in SSF2, she has issues in neutral where basically she'll be dead by the time she lands a rest. Also the fact that she can still get killed when she lands a rest on the opponent if the opponent doesn't get star KO-ed is another thing just to note. But her inconsistency is kind of an issue.

DK Pretty much has the Ding Dong which can kill consistently at rather low percents just for you to note. But his overall fast mobility for his weight, high survivability, and more allows for him to work well as a heavy. But I may eventually place him lower.

ZSS has overall issues in neutral in order for her to properly get her setups to work. While you could debate a character like Donkey Kong doesn't have a great neutral, he still has more chances to win in neutral due to his great survivability and he only needs a few wins in neutral to get a stock.

Bandana Dee still has mobility and a short hurtbox meaning it is hard for him to get hit along with his suprisingly disjointed range and fantastic pressure game. A Character like Fox gets comboed and chain-grabbed with ease but he is also light. Most characters around his placement have similar issues but they have strengths that can overcome his weaknesses.

Zelda seems to do a bit worse against most of the cast in general especially when she has issues against rushdown characters, which are rather popular in the Metagame. But I will look into Zelda.

Mario actually still has a great neutral and mobility which justifies his rather poor range and his overall balance in every categories allows for him to be rather consistent which is a great thing when it comes towards doing well in tournaments.

I May Look into Lloyd more.

One of my crews, NSB, compiled a tier list

I can try giving my own thoughts if you guys ask. I didn't vote on a lot chars, and I disagree with certain bits of it (I.E. ZSS too high, zelda too high, falcon and chibi too low)

Contributors:
Gax, DaddySSF2, FlavienSSF2, Stefaanjoe, Nosfratu, Sorabotics, RiverDB, Alpha Hatsuseno

Kinda Contributors:
Chaos0, Oreocackesters

Voted on like 1 thing:
Chaunch, Infamous

(Updated for Patch 1.0.1, will be updated again as time goes by and the meta develops)

I generally agree.

Except : Bowser, Cpt falcon and Zelda is Mid tier (Mid+ with patch 1.0.2)

Lloyd High tier ? Yes, Lloyd beta is largely underestimated.

For that tier list, bomberman is WAY too low tbh. Black Mage should be moved up a spot. Luffy should be lower. Bandana Dee should be much higher. Isaac should be lower. Pikachu is too low. G&W is too low. Samus is a bit too high. Tails is too low. Zelda is too low as well. And Goku isn't the best character in the game.

Can we have a thread somewhere wherein character results in tournaments are posted? I think that would eventually give us a more accurate picture of character viability.

https://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtop ... 27&t=45018
Let it start.

how yall gonna put that low when i bopped half the crew with him?? :pikathinking: