@Void
I already said I don't care much about results and explained why. Players are too few, especially Top. This also influence nationnals.
players are few, but they are the best. if mango beats wobbles, that means 1000000000x more than some no name fox beating some no name ice climbers.

If counterpicking isn't important, then, Peach should drop, because she is stopped by Puff. Very hard. And this is also supported by results.
except peach has a much stronger matchup spread even despite this bad matchup, especially when played by armada. she's not countered by puff as hard as ice climbers are stomped by peach, tbh

So to answer your question : no I don't care about locals, however it is still funny to be so adamant with results as an undisputable base to dicuss ranking. If so, Jigglypuff should have been n°1 at some point.
no, results heavily affect tier lists but don't DECIDE tier lists. that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. jigglypuff has been in S tier for a long time now - you don't say just because jiggles won nationals, she's #1, you say because icies don't ever break top 8 in nationals with evo as an exception, that's strong justification for icies not being above falcon

As for the pichu statement I understood what he said. But he doesn't understand that in this case, it may be Falcon that's the most flawed character, and proved by MUs.
you clearly didn't understand what i said given your response LOL

Hax johns ?
Good, because he isn't the reason for my claims.
I guess Armada johns too.
But he isn't the reason either.
Ice Climbers have legitimately what it takes

@Goodclicker it's gookclicker, pls
_ I don't care about ssbpd. It was just a short sentence about funny datas. i was responding to your statement, however light heartedly made it was
_ Everyone agrees about Ice Climber n° 8 ? Not really. I see your reasonning but I am not in a refuting stance. I am actually open minded to the possibilty of a change. i didn't say that, i'm just disagreeing with your statement that MUs and results support your argument when they clearly don't
_ Counterpicking isn't a flaw. If so Peach wouldn't be 6th because of Puff. counterpicking isn't a flaw, but counterpicking can't be a point in your argument either. i didn't say anything about armada cping ylink, i only said that you can't say that icies will cp other characters when they face bad matchups because that doesn't help your argument at all
If some of you 2 want to tell me Puff vs Peach isn't worse than 65-35, I advise you to bring some solid reasonning.
not saying that at all, just saying that the matchup isn't so prominent that it destroys peach's standings in the tier list
As far as I know Falcon has more consistent tools vs Falco, than (Armada's) Peach vs (Hbox's) Puff.
hence why falcon isn't as hard countered by spacies, although it's definitely a tough matchup


This is just mindblowing how condescending you two are toward me.
i'm not being condescending, if you think i am then i apologize but you're being hardheaded. but seriously you think you're less biased than all the people who voted on the tier list, with pretty shoddy reasoning nonetheless.
I exposed my argument : Ice Climbers is better (or equal) than Falcon against everyone except for Peach. Wich is why it is so easy to counterpick. If that was wrong, then Doctor mario, I guess, is better than Ice Climbers ?

This is annoying. You don't even try to think a bit out of your box.
Even if you don't agree with me, be more consistent in your reasonning. And actually try to envisage the possibilty of what I say, before claiming I'm dead wrong.
if you're so sure, why do you not see many icies pros complaining about falcon and icies being swapped? why haven't you noticed you're a vocal minority?

Don't you know any competitive game where having less hard counters, and better MUs against the others Top tier, is more viable ?
You could say it's player skills, but it's still a part of Ice Climbers's viabilty.

About the "statut quo" part, yes this community would simply be shocked to see Falcon drop. Falcon bias.
And Top players themselves don't always agree about placement.
However contrarily to some people out there, Top players try to think. To challenge. If after thinking, they claim they view Ice Climbers as 8th, I have no problem with it.
However, if after re-thinking, some of them think they are possibly 7th, why should I be laughed at if I think the same ?
oh yeah you're totally right dude, of course top players don't look at the tier list and make arguments when they think some characters should be placed higher or others to be dropped down, of course it's up to people like you to expose holes in the system. f*** yeah stick it to the man

Also remember I said "possibility", not certainty.

Basic MU spread knowledge and couterpicking system is of a baby competitior level.
Smash players seem to be adamant against RPS counterpicking impacting the tier listing.

Oh and don't bring up Pichu again. I repeat myself : Ice Climbers case is an actual, true possibility, and one should not ignore that.
Did I say how Falcon is a bit overrated ?

If you really think he is better, you actually have to bring up an explanation, because the MUs don't say so right now.
And it may reflect in the future results who knows ?

If you disagree with me, you haven't bringed on the true counter arguments.
Again, Ice Climber is just possibly 7th, and there is actual reasoning to back up this claim.
Falcon is good, yeah.
Ice Climbers may just be better.

I edited my post about Pichu.

Counterpicking with Fox makes you a Fox mainer, because Pichu has too many unwinable MUs.
This is not the case with Ice Climbers.

Would you find it funny if I told you Ice Climbers have just as good MU spread as Peach without their respective hard counters ?

And would you find it funny if I told Armada (and I) thinks Peach vs Puff is AT LEAST as bad as Icies vs Peach ?
And by that he means... Really, really bad.

EDIT :
I am a vocal minority. Yes. And ?
Does it makes my argument invalid ?
Ice Climbers are stuck because of it ?

well it means you have burden of proof to prove your argument, and we can sit here nitpicking your arguments because we don't have burden of proof

also where did you see the thing about icies having just as good mu spread
because http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM) is the most recent thing i can find but it doesn't support what you're saying

I personnaly would prefer playing a character close-to even against everyone but 1 hard counter that I can counterpick, rather than a flawed character with bad MU all across the board and 3 common, S tier, medium counters (Falcon, Fox, Sheik).

I guess this is just a matter of vision.

Who here seen SKTAR 2? I only saw Grand Finals.

Who here seen SKTAR 2? I only saw Grand Finals.

ESAM and Axe are the best Pikachu mains right?

Axes face when he plays is hilarious though.

Can i make a seperate topic for PM?

Whats a bad MU for falco in brawl and melee?