Are we all going to ignore the part where a Pacman and Samus both won tourneys? That should be enough to place them mid tier tbh

I mean I already put them in mid tier at the first place. I'm assuming the Samus was from River and he probably wasn't always playing Samus. And Pac-Man might be due to a lack of matchup inexperience from his counterplay issues. But if they can keep it up more and be somewhat consistent in high placements even in the future, they could be high tier.

Was going to mention that, that Samus's results are offer River utilizing her. He specifically mentioned that it's basically her absurd damage off Nair, Fair, CS that make her usable. I suspect each of those will see damage nerfs (they should... because they deal way too much for how easy they are to connect with) and that will drop her down to low-mid unless she sees improvements elsewhere in terms of frame data and weight.

Yep, but that kinda carries her to Mid-Tier since even with insane tools like that, it is pretty prone to stale-ing especially when used a lot.

When you say Matchup inexperience for Pac

I say, Gax 2-0 Kyoz' Pac in the winner's bracket beforehand until Kyoz won loser's and was able to reset the bracket and win

It was 3-0 then 3-1 for Kyoz

Tbh it seems more like Kyoz learning the Matchup to make a comeback and less of Gax not adapting.

And looking at Kyoz's Pac-man, it definently is incredible. But it kind of shows how Niche Pac-Man's tools can be (Due to the amount of traps/weird glitches he possesses and how it may be adapted in the future of top level play especially due to his counterplay issues.

Pls explain, I don't understand how Pac's tools are niche

Perhaps a better way to put it is he has a ton of tools, but very few of them are applicable in any given circumstance (or require proper planning). He's capable, but it remains to be seen if a quirk for every scenario is enough to keep him high performing as players understand what his glitches/traps are and how to play around them.

Even though a Pac won a major, Incinerate did mention that people didn't know the MU.

So whose the most broken char in the recent demo? I'm way too behind and haven't been on these forums in a while

There's no character that's "Broken" in the sense of being ban worthy and/or Cloud

And saying "Most Broken" implies there's more than one broken character in Beta when no one can still decide on who's top one... except maybe Fox who has almost always been considered top tier so far, but not good enough to be in his own tier as he can get combo'ed hard

Fox's neutral has always been average. As people learn to handle the pace and aggression, they can space and deny (hence why Kyoz came back so strongly against Gax)

I have to disagree: Fox's neutral is one of the best in the game, otherwise he would lose most every matchup. In almost every matchup, the punish game is heavily tilted towards the opponent: if a Fox player wins, it's usually from winning upwards of 60-70% of neutral interactions, not going even or better in the punish game. Winning against Fox neutral usually requires a pretty decent read on run-in SH nair or the like (many Foxes are too predictable, but that's not a character problem), but dash-dancing or mixing up shine-grab or dtilt or dair can ruin pre-emptive neutral counterplay, and makes him a nightmare to win neutral against. He also has Shine for shield pressure, which makes shielding against him almost useless.

I agree with the overall sentiment that Fox is not this amazing SS-tier character. I think, however, that Fox's rank will go down because of people optimizing the punish game more than learning the neutral (although obviously that will happen). The game is new, and collectively our punish games (especially against Fox, who usually requires matchup-specific knowledge for punishes, like Marth's chaingrab combos, and a lot of practice to edgeguard consistently) sorta suck. They'll get a lot better over time, and I think that will make Fox fall in the tier lists people are making: if it's viable to win a game if you lose the neutral 80% of the time, then that drastically changes how good Foxes have to be at the neutral and punish game to take people out.

Y'all talking about fox's neutral while I'm getting nightmares by the fact that spawn considers Black Mage and Sonic not only bottom 3, but worse than yoshi. Wtf?

I wouldn't say he really has a good neutral, but his kit facilitates bypassing neutral through aggression and combos that leave opponents few good options once engaged. As soon as Fox actually respects a character's space and pulls off the gas a bit, he has challenges. He's the kind of character that can win neutral against those who aren't prepared to push back (i.e. slower characters or those who require time to set up) and then the aim is to really only win neutral once or twice before up-smash or up-air close the stock. As I mentioned with Gax v. Kyoz (grand finals), as Gax respected Kyoz's space and engaged in an actual neutral game, he severely struggled because Kyoz knew that spacing him out and getting him offstage is all that was necessary to win the MU, and by a healthy margin. Nair + shine combos don't help you when projectile/disjoint walls block your short hop height. He doesn't have that high priority, so blocking a very predictable approach is one big way to deal with Fox.

On your second point, I definitely agree that as people come to know how to punish Fox better with tech chases, grab resets, edge guarding, he'll probably find himself where he was in v0.9b, A-tier but definitely not top dog.