Interesting. What about getup attacks or SDI+DI up?

You can't do get-up attack in time. There's a period of time you must wait after a knockdown before you can do it, and Marth can jab-reset before that time is up. And only floats or light-weights seem to be able to DI up so they don't get knockdown or reset.

This isn't as strong as it sounds though. It's really specific to punish medium or heavier characters only with bad tech-roll animations. So this can only be done on maybe 10 characters and not for for many reps either. It can stops at like 60%, but it can be good free damage for Marth since he has a problems at 150%+ killing. I mostly do it to about 50%, and do a jab-reset in to tipper Fsmash. That can KO near the ledge of stages in most cases.

i know i don't post here often but what the hell, might as well start

i've been playing against friends using Marth and honestly, he feels pretty terrible

am i doing something wrong? i try to play him like i would in Brawl and it doesn't seem to be working out. he seems to lack kill moves and his counter is super inconsistent (he only does 20% damage and hardly any knockback against DK's Donkey Punch?)

chaingrab shenanigans are fun though

Yup. Marth weaknesses, which may seem mild, make his playstyle suffer a lot. Short/vulnerable range, sluggish speed, lack of KO potential, low damage, predictable recovery. He's just an okay character overall, but not much of a speedy glass-cannon like he's known for. You has to put in a lot of work in using his shenanigans to really keep him afloat with other characters.

Exactly, the more I play as him the worse I realize he actually is XD

He's pretty bad. I think he's OK against characters with bad recoveries who he can gimp, but there are other characters that are better at that than he is. He just doesn't have anything that makes him stand out.

Marth's transitioning between the air and ground are still messed up. His air speed is literally faster than his running speed for whatever reason when it should be the opposite.

But hey, maybe I've been playing Smash 4 too much lately.

i find marth to be the most unforgiving character in the game... he has very fast attacks. good range. amazing throws. insane combo potential. good recovery. he should be good with these attributes...

except when you consider that i can hardly KO anyone under 200%, Counter is kinda bugged "i noticed sometimes it activates very late, sometimes not at all. and altough yes, he has insane KO potential with tipper hits, all the interesting ones lack KO power, only the awkward options can really kill. not to mention the insane difficulty of just landing a tipper to start with. i noticed that up-smash can land a reliable tipper when soomeone is on a platform, but thats the only "guarantee" i have in this field. F-air doesnt kill. N-air doesnt even seem to have a tipper to begin with. his Dair is easily the strongest meteor in the game, but again has a really weird hitbox that leaves you wide open if you miss. his D-smash stinks. i never landed a tipper. and i never killed anyone with it. its slow, clumsy, and unreliable. his up-spec lacks his normal KO potential too. i find it to be one of the easiest attacks to sweetspot, but it doesnt seem to have any decent knockback scaling, as opposed to killing at around 120% near the ledge in melee / brawl (if hit on the very first few frames and the tip, which is easy to pull off), while here it just pokes enemies off-stage in such a disastrous angle that they dont even need a double jump to recover. his d-tilt lock and weak semi-spike properties are nonexistant, too. this is sad, it would completely change the matchup between him and, say, fox.

for a character that normally has to be played uber offensively in official titles, he ended up as a super cautious, glassiest of glass cannons that lacks the "cannon" thing.

if you come to think of it, he has similar atributes to captain falcon. very fast attacks, good movement speed... apart from the obvious differences. however, i could easily consider CF as a "glass cannon" in what he is easy to SD accidentaly and requires very good timing to be successfull. he is obviously NOT for begginers. but he has so much ko potential in so many great options, that he becomes reliable even for tournaments. you have knee, bair, dair, f-smash and s-spec on air as easy killing tools that can be very easily be comboed into, his falcon punch is super slow, but pretty much guarantees a stock over 60%, and can be used as an amazing punish on unsuspecting players.

marth has all the same weaknesses, and then has less recovery options and no KO potential within normal play. its just... eeeeeeeuuugggh. my games as marth end up being draggin the enemy off-stage until 60%, then repeatedly edgeguard and attempt to tip-Dair, which sometimes happens out of luck and i win spectacularly, or most of the time gimps at around 200%. it even gets BORING to play as. and altough i am being completely honest when i say i completely stink with him, what i see in the videos are otherwise amazing players with other characters suddenly taking ages to finish off oponents.

I don't feel like Marth needs more range as much as I feel most of the other sword characters need a shortened range. That way Marth's sword won't seem as short in comparison to other swordies like Lloyd and Link.

With that being said characters who don't have swords/disjoinsts will fair better in the metagame as a whole.

I see what you did there.

Martha's best kill option IMO is tipper bair. For killing, this move actually sends at a decent angle. In the Marth ditto for instance, landing a tipper bair on a Marth without a jump offstage = the stock. If fsmash was easier to tipper on platforms he would have a lot more kill potential too.

I'd rate Nspec to be better than Bair because of the ease of connection.
I killed a Samus off of a side platform on Battlefield at 80% using Nspec

Nspec is not easier to land than bair as a kill move, the location of the hitbox doesn't lend itself well to where Marth wants his opponent or where they will be when he is comboing. Nspec is also a much higher commitment, so if you whiff the nspec thats rough for Marth but whiffing bair isn't as bad.

I'm curious if that was online of offline against human/CPU. Online lag means they might not DI properly, offline against CPUs mean they sometimes DI really bad, but offline against a human who knows how to DI is another story. I'll give that it has better KB early, but idk about at higher percents.

I think the most important change is to make his tipper hitboxes work, especially on dair. Then I can see marth becoming a much better character.

Tippers work, the problem is that apparently Marth's hitboxes were drawn weird so he's getting a fix in the next patch. The other thing is that the main smash games use circle hitboxes but SSF2 uses square hitboxes, this can make certain attacks weird to space.

It was a human offline, I could PM you a replay, or post it here