The Possibility of Last-Minute Clones
The Possibility of Last-Minute Clones
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Utah P. Teasdale (Harr)
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As stated by the Project M team and Sakurai, cloning characters are an effective way to pad out the roster with little effort, as frame and animation data are difficult to make from scratch.
What I'm wondering is, would or could clones potentially be added here if the need was felt? A sprite edit would definitely be easier to create than a from-scratch sprite. The clones in Melee were there to quickly add more to the roster when development time was running short. The clones in 4 were the same way.
Would you be open to it if the devs felt that it was necessary or desirable at some point late in development? Would you think it was a bad idea, due to either distaste of clones or thoughts that it would be too much extra work? I'm curious on the SSF2 playerbase's thoughts on this.
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:07 am |
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Kirb-Star
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Honestly, I enjoy playing with clones in the Smash Games. As long as they stay as Semi-Clones, I wouldn't mind.
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:33 am |
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Utah P. Teasdale (Harr)
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Me, I wouldn't even be opposed to full clones. I've matured since the old days on the matter - more characters is always a good thing if they bring something new to the table. My most sharply-changing view in this matter is Lucina; I used to hate her, until I realized that though on paper her properties are identical to Marth's, her playstyle is completely different as the one difference between them is a major, universal one.
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:09 pm |
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Goku2500
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I personally would not mind any clones, as long as there are NOT too many of them.
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:25 pm |
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blackking1700
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With the customizable moves, you can change character movesets so that there aren't any real clones.
I don't think that complete clones will be added, but be honest is smash even smash any more without clone characters?
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Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:11 pm |
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Starkiller
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The way I see it, characters can be clones in animations/skin and playstyle. That seems hard to dispute. If two characters share extreme similarities in animations, they are at least semi-clones. If two characters play the same but have different animations and stuff then that is a coincidence, so what if Falco and Dedede use dthrow to chaingrab all of the time? They certainly aren't clones. If two characters share extreme similarities in both categories however, we have what I call a TRUE clone, where the differences between the two characters (if any) are negligible and as a result they end up playing the same.
Fox and Falco from Melee are examples of characters that have similar animations on EVERY attack (and since Fox came first, Falco is a clone of Fox), but due to subtle changes in physics and how the attacks actually work, they end up playing absolutely nothing alike. They end up being semi-clones, which is fine since they aren't REALLY clones (if anything, it's a testament to how different two characters that are extremely similar can be). They split up in Brawl, no longer sharing every animation and playing very differently. I argue then that Falco became a completely different character in Brawl, no longer even a semi-clone. But I digress. An example of true clones is Marth and Lucina. They share the same animations on every attack, and play the same. Their stats are extremely similar, and the subtle differences between the two means that only very specific things have to be done differently, but the game plan is practically the same. Since Marth came first, Lucina is a clone of Marth. Since they share extreme similarities in animations and playstyle, Lucina is a true clone.
If you don't agree with Marth/Lucina, then take a look at Pit and Dark Pit (they even share the same name). Dark Pit is a true clone of Pit.
Anyways, my main point is that true clones are practically the same character. They only serve to pad the roster and to, sadly, advertise that character. If they are practically the same character, and do not benefit the depth of the game, then I say that true clones should NOT be in smash. Any developer is perfectly capable of coming up with a unique moveset for a character, to remove the clone aspect, which is perfectly fine by me.
tl;dr Semi-clones like Fox and Falco from Melee are fine (although de-cloning the characters is generally better imo), and true clones like Marth/Lucina and Pit/D.Pit are not fine at all.
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Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:40 am |
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Utah P. Teasdale (Harr)
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| | | | Phoenix Wright wrote: The way I see it, characters can be clones in animations/skin and playstyle. That seems hard to dispute. If two characters share extreme similarities in animations, they are at least semi-clones. If two characters play the same but have different animations and stuff then that is a coincidence, so what if Falco and Dedede use dthrow to chaingrab all of the time? They certainly aren't clones. If two characters share extreme similarities in both categories however, we have what I call a TRUE clone, where the differences between the two characters (if any) are negligible and as a result they end up playing the same.
Fox and Falco from Melee are examples of characters that have similar animations on EVERY attack (and since Fox came first, Falco is a clone of Fox), but due to subtle changes in physics and how the attacks actually work, they end up playing absolutely nothing alike. They end up being semi-clones, which is fine since they aren't REALLY clones (if anything, it's a testament to how different two characters that are extremely similar can be). They split up in Brawl, no longer sharing every animation and playing very differently. I argue then that Falco became a completely different character in Brawl, no longer even a semi-clone. But I digress. An example of true clones is Marth and Lucina. They share the same animations on every attack, and play the same. Their stats are extremely similar, and the subtle differences between the two means that only very specific things have to be done differently, but the game plan is practically the same. Since Marth came first, Lucina is a clone of Marth. Since they share extreme similarities in animations and playstyle, Lucina is a true clone.
If you don't agree with Marth/Lucina, then take a look at Pit and Dark Pit (they even share the same name). Dark Pit is a true clone of Pit.
Anyways, my main point is that true clones are practically the same character. They only serve to pad the roster and to, sadly, advertise that character. If they are practically the same character, and do not benefit the depth of the game, then I say that true clones should NOT be in smash. Any developer is perfectly capable of coming up with a unique moveset for a character, to remove the clone aspect, which is perfectly fine by me.
tl;dr Semi-clones like Fox and Falco from Melee are fine (although de-cloning the characters is generally better imo), and true clones like Marth/Lucina and Pit/D.Pit are not fine at all. | | | | |
I'm going to have to disagree with you that Lucina doesn't add anything. She is a lot safer at rushdowns than Marth (and less safe at mid-range), and certain combos that would not be worth it on him due to some parts not landing on the tipper cause enough damage to consider with her. I agree that Dark Pit was handled abysmally, though. They should have at least had slightly different physics. It could have easily been a Fox/Falco or Mario/Doc situation that they failed to do.
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Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:37 am |
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Jaguar3600
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I'd say possible, but not exactly probable. I wouldn't mind if it happened though. Would love to see Dr. Mario in.
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Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:23 pm |
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Kirb-Star
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Now that we talked about the possibility of Last-Minute Clones, how about if we talk about certain characters that could be Last Minute Clones? The Characters I tought of are: -Paula (Ness Clone): Faster than Ness, but doesn't jump as high as Ness. Exact same Moveset as Ness's with a few differences: -The Baseball Bat is replaced with a Frying Pan, would work the same as Peach's Pan. -Most attacks are slightly stronger, but have a bit more ending lag. -Up tilt: Instead of doing a Headbutt, Paula hits with her briefcase upwards. -Princess Daisy (Peach Clone): Faster than Peach, but can't float and has lower air speed. Similar moveset as Ness with a few differences: -Forward Tilt: Instead of kicking forward 180 degrees from low to high, she performs a kick more similar to Ness's. -Neutral Combo: Instead of slapping, Daisy punches forward, but the damages and konckback is the same. Hitboxes are different, tough. -Up tilt: A Flower symbol appears instead of a Heart symbol. Also, faster with less startup and ending lag, but slightly weaker. -Side Smash: All weapons are the same (Golf Club, Tennis Racket), except that the frying Pan is replaced with a Baseball Bat. -Up Smash: Uppercuts. -Down Aerial: Kicks and falls faster -Back Aerial: Kicks Backwards. -Grab: Uses a Baseball Glove. Has more reange than Peach's, but has more ending lag if it misses. -Forward Throw: Places the opponent in the ground quickly and sends him/her flying with a golf club. -Back Throw: Launches the opponent backwards with a Tennix Racket. Increased Ending Lag and can turn Daisy the other way (If she used the attack facing left, she will end up facing right) Also, I tought of a way to add these kind of characters without spending one slot in the Character selection Menu: Have you seen there's an arrow icon in Super Smash Bros Crusade 0.9 to switch between Luigi and Weegee (stay with me on this one!) and Samus and Zero Suit Samus. Even if the day is poorly executed in Crusade I think it would work to have this feature in SSF2 to hide Clone characters. Example: -Marth/Lucina -Mario/Dr. Mario -My ideas of Ness/Paula or Peach/Daisy I know this is most likely not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun to have.
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Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:34 pm |
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Mr.Xenomega
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I Would Love To See Dark Pit , Lucas (Project M Version) , And Roy In This Game But Both Being Semi-Clones ^_^
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Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:36 pm |
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Shine-chan
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I think it would be cool if Justin Bailey was playable as a Zero Suit Samus clone. Her arm cannon would make her a little more heavier. Basically she'd be a mix of ZSS's standard attacks and Samus's specials
It also would be cool if daisy was a semi clone lol
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Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:15 pm |
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goml
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Id like to see Charles Barkley as a Mario clone.
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Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:56 am |
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Utah P. Teasdale (Harr)
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But Justin Bailey is Zero Suit Samus. The fact that it sounds like a name is merely a coincidence; it is a randomly-generated string of characters that was accidentally discovered to be a valid code. In fact, a lot of real words will do something. Someone even tried "ENGAGE RIDLEY MOTHER f***" and it turned out to be a valid code - one that caused a crash after a few steps, but still. The codes aren't premade, with the possible exception of "narpassword", which is speculated to be a debug code.
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Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:07 am |
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tson
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well, clones are only very slightly easier for a hand-drawn game than a full character. we can't just ctrl+r and swap a model out like a 3d game and reuse old anims, we have to edit every frame of every animation. just wanted to throw that out there, won't say anything as far as how we stand because it does still save a little work : )
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Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:25 pm |
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RemPrower
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The more stuff for my Tails to kill, the merrier.
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Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:48 pm |
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