Thanks Kirby.

guys make sure you use uspec if you main wario it's a hidden treasure tbh its quite good

Well i can definitely say that it connects so much better than the previous verios and that little bump on the end is really good too so yeah i'm with this.

I've been having a great deal of fun lately with Wario's wide array of short-range, low knockback combo tools. That being said, I'm having a lot of trouble finding KO potential in Wario outside of fart. I'm going to be ignoring fart for the duration of this post, as it's clearly a great KO tool but is unreliable due to the fact that it's on a timer.

Almost every move Wario has has a knockback arc upwards and away, and hits with low to moderate power. The moves that do have strictly vertical knockback (dtilt, uair, uspec, usmash), haven't been KOing at acceptable percentages. And there are very few moves with closer to horizontal or horizontal and downwards knockback (fsmash, dash attack, bthrow, dthrow, back neutral b, sweetspot nair).

In the time I have spent with Wario, these are the results I've been seeing from his highest potential KO moves.
Fsmash does not KO before 150% on most of the roster and most of the stages, and even then I would be standing at the ledge and using a partially charged version to send them into the blastzone. This move is surprisingly weak for its lack of range and lengthy animation.
Sweetspot uair does not KO before 140% on most of the roster and most of the stages, even when landing one from the peak of a double jump off the top platform of yoshi's story, I can't score KO's before 100% with this move. Great for juggling, not for KOs. Uspec follows pretty much the same rules, if not weaker. It is a good move though, so I'll forgive it.

These, on the other hand, have been where I've been finding most of my KO's.
Sweetspot nair offstage has been my primary KO tool. That being said, Wario doesn't have the greatest airspeed and recovery, so going far offstage for a KO especially when you only have one real option to be a threat is a really disadvantageous position. (Fair and uair generally help the enemy more than hurt) Also far less realistic on stages without walls to sspec into or against members of the roster with more than 2 jumps.
Back neutral spec under the stage. This is so gimmicky and I'm embarrassed. That being said, i love how quickly Wario can act out of chomp.
Maxrange grounded sspec. Incredibly telegraphed and punishable, I'm blushing right now.
Dash attack. It's knockback is nice and comes out quickly. I'm very okay with this move killing at veryhigh%, just unhappy that I actually use it to KO.
Landing normals on over 200% enemies. My % given to % taken ratio in Wario matchups is ridiculous.

These all could be decent KO options on Wario, but currently are not due to low knockback.
Ftilt (it's weak)
Fsmash (it's not strong)
Bthrow (why not)
Uair (needs more oomph, maybe a more precise sweetspot could allow reliable juggles with sour/kos with sweet?)
Usmash (why is it incredibly weak?)

These all could be decent KO options on Wario, but currently are not due to other factors.
Dthrow (it can be DI'd and ground teched, but if used at the ledge has really good trajectory and power. Seriously though, if not used offstage this is a get-out-of-wario-free card for the opponent)
Offstage dair, for SD reasons. Outside of simply having long startup and being generally predictable, an opponent could see this and simply opt to give up their recovery to dodge it and trade stocks instead of being hit. Jump cancel or sweetspotting ledges could make this a decent offstage gimping option, but as it stands I don't like this move outside of doing adorable little flips on platforms.
Offstage sspec, again, for SD reasons. That being said, this move has plenty of utility and doesn't need to be retooled. But if the aerial version could be jump canceled...

I never thought I would say this, but I feel like Wario has too much combo potential, and it's dipping into his KO ability. I adore everything about the guy (love the sprites, great job guys), and he meshes really well with my playstyle, but I need something other than fart and risky or gimmicky strats to convert with. I don't want to play a stalling, look for KO every minute style of game.
So with this in mind, I guess the questions I have here are:
What has eveyone else been KOing with?
At what percent has everyone else been finding KOs?
If I have a combo going, what do I end it with if fart isn't 0.45 charged or greater?

Really looking forward to getting some feedback on this.

Alright, well since i don't have much experience online (Due to the connection i have) i'll be making points based on assumptions and what i think would work.

Lemme tell you now, that winning a game isn't based on just finisher moves, have you ever considered gimping opponents? It is simply not enough to smash an opponent and hope for the best. Wario is gifted with a huge amount of combo potential, and for this, he has low powered smash attacks. (though i do admit the F-smash should be more powerful)

Wario's huge combo game set's the opponent in a bad position if they make a mistake on Wario. A simple combo like D-tilt, f-air, N-air already can leave the opponent available for a gimp, or you can just back away and basically you've just accumulated around 30% worth of damage and can literally do the same thing again. And Wario can just throw almost any attack, and still follow up with another making him a dangerous opponent.

Against anyone that doesn't have more than 3 jumps (including recovery "jumps") Wario can easily gimp their recover with a weak attack, like little bit of B-air and N-air (Sour or sweet spotted) And Wario usually has enough priority to accomplish this. But to really secure the deal, you have to ledgeguard most of the time at low % if you're lucky, you can K.O from the above combo by gimping with another Sweet spotted N-air and ledgeguard to seal the deal. And if they used their second jump and gott away from you, that's even better. Wario's aerial mobility allows him to easily catch up or get to a safe distance without getting punished, essentially, it's just a reset.

Characters who have more jumps than the rest of the cast like like Kirby, Jigglypuff, Metaknight are probably Warios toughest match ups though. (Tails is excluded because of his fast falling traits which could ultimately make him real suspectable to a gimp.) You have to usemore strategy when gimping, because that have multiple jumps, you're going to have to play a bit of mind games sometimes, like, bait an airdodge/attack, scare them with a F-air, remember that Wario doesn't have the best recovery of his own, and against multiple jump characters, you need to be extra careful in how you attack.

One more thing before i answer your questions. And that is Mindgames. but not with attacks per se. but with taunts. Yes, taunts. Wario is particularly annoying, and his taunts looks as if to make fun of his opponents as should any other taunt should be. But who else would wave dat a** at his opponent? Who else? The thing i'm trying to say is that, a taunt during a match (Just B-throwed an opponent off the edge for example) could change the game more than you realise. And the reactions can change through player to player, you could severely aggravate their play style and this could make them focus on pure offense or resort to mindless attacking, other times you could taunt for no reason at all and your opponent might stuff up. Who knows with mind games. But in all seriousness, Taunts aren't always for end of matches or after K.O'ing.
I mean, there isn't anything against the rules on taunting? (i think anyway xD)

Question one = Mainly aerial attacks. A well timed Chomp (The bite, not the grab) can K.o or gimp opponents effectively off stage. And because of Wario's mobility in the air, he almost always will not require a second jump. even if you feel unsafe, and frontal attack is negated by Chomp's grab. unless if its a projectile, so some quick thinking biting skills are needed to out prioritise it.
N-air has also been proved useful after an F-smash. Against human's, it's sourspot can lead into a sweetspot, but it's completely situational if it sourspots.
D-air is something for when you know if the opponent is about to use his final recovery (U-spec or that last jump for Jigglypuff) My recommendation is learn every character's recovery, how well it protects itself, how far it goes and how much distance it travels. I suggest practicing on Bomberman, as Buttsmash beats Rocket jump. and Bomber man has less horizontal gain than vertical by a long shot, so it's a nice starting point. Then you can work you way until you manage to hit Ichigo during mid U-spec. (right in the middle of his blade where his hand has a small hurt box...though this still remains untested as of 0.9b, it did work in 0.9a however) Keep in mind that some recoveries beat the infamous buttsmash(D-air).
U-spec has also been a reliable K.O Move at higher % if you don't stale it, from the top of battlefeild above 60% you could F-throw(or U-throw),jump, U-air, jump, U-spec. This is provided that you can predict their DI and track their DI mid U-spec.

Question two =(all against CPU's) Ledgehogging a recovery has lead to percent's as low as 25% generally, if i'm having trouble setting up a good K.O or gimp, i'll end to K.O at 120% - 140% Other than that my most common K.O Range is 80%-120%

Question three = Really does depend on what type of combo you're performing, S-spec is fast and if you're right next to them you could use that, Dash attack is also great, just don't run blindly into them with these attacks. But i think Sweetspot N-air should be your best choice. So far, i've only ever used Farting to get that last stock.

Hope some of this helps and any other Wario main is free to shout out their advice/opinions.

Nair and dash attack have good knockback. Side-B is really great too, and it's downright deadly if you hit in the ending frames (as Wario slows down).

just do a jumping sideb from really high up its relatively safe and scares everyone because it can kill at like 90%

same with a grounded sideb from far away

Chomp gets me so salty. I want my jumps back thank you.

Wario disagrees.

It would be kinda cool of the fart had it's limits differently so that it doesn't encourage Wario's to stall just to charge it up.
I was thinking something where the timer would reset everytime he would lose a stock. Because of that, we should probably decrease the wait by (so it's about 1min wait) and nerf the moves power a bit.


Regarding Wario himself, he's a pretty fun character. To play as and against. While the Shoulder Bash is a minor annoyance. I believe he's pretty solid and balanced.

I think Wario is OP. The range on Waft is probably the most ridiculous thing in the game. I should've saved the replay of the last match I had with my bro. You could've fit 4 Sheiks between us. Also, a move that continues to charge passively even after you've died allows for some serious camp, and the fact that you can't miss with it means an opponent is always at least a stock down from the start (and don't forget about Chompicides). The length of Shoulder Bash is so comical that I literally laugh every time I'm hit by the very end of it. And yeah, it maintains the same damage and knockback throughout. An equally annoying thing about the move is that he can't be hit from behind while doing it. In fact, he hits you! Here I am complaining about the super armor on DK and Naruto's nspecs while Wario's Bash is probably even more criminal. At least those attacks have to hit you. Bash can literally KO you while running in the other direction. I mean, lesson learned. Don't attack him from behind. But why should any character have such long, drawn out, KO-potential invincibility? Oh, and it also starts exactly like his dash attack, just to mess with you.

The OPness of Wario really centers around Waft, though. His move set makes him really difficult to engage (with most characters), but you also HAVE to engage him or he can rack up Waft kills. I have yet to encounter a more difficult strategy to deal with in this game. It's mental as much as it is physical.

Not sure if he really is OP, but I agree that the Waft needs to be toned down. An ultra safe long ranged kill move (at 0%) it's quite unfair, also considering there's no way to tell when it's coming (he doesn't flash yellow unlike brawl/project m). It can overcentralize his gameplay in just camping till he can get that one easy kill.

I've never had problems with his shoulder bash tho, it's good but not thaaat good

Flashing is a must, just for peace of mind. Shoulder Bash, and pretty much all of his moves, increase in effectiveness when you're rushing to get a kill in before his a** does. I honestly don't think he has a single throwaway move. They're all useful, and he has amazing mobility and recovery. Sure he dashes slow, but he has no reason to dash fast. The fight has to come to him eventually.

Well having good moves shouldn't be a problem, if anything it would be better if more characters had as many options as him; not as "every move is safe" but as "you have more than one move you can throw around" (like the opposite of Jiggs in early Melee meta with her bair).

The slow dash isn't really a problem considering he has one if not the best aerial mobility in the game, plus having superb aerial attacks; in fact, without the OP waft he still would be a really solid contender, he does not need it.

Regarding the Shoulder Bash, after playing a bit with him (not against, it's hard to find someone online who's coincidentally playing as him) I don't think it's really that amazing. It's not too fast and quite predictable if not done upclose, where it doesn't really have that much knockback. When afar it's really easy to react to, either by shielding (which can lead to an easy punish) or with a projectile/disjoint. Maybe it's harder to get around if done from the air, but considering he will not travel too far when doing it you won't have to deal with his lingering KOing hitbox.

He absolutely doesn't need it, and that's what's been frustrating with a few moves in this demo. Naruto and DK don't need super armor on their nspecs to be good characters. They already have so much going for them. Same thing with Wario. He's top tier caliber imo without that incredibly OP move, so why have it? Why have moves that are such humongous game changers as opposed to ones that are a thrill when they land? You take the fun out of Giant Punch, Rasenshuriken and Waft because a 4 year old can land them. I go back to Jiggly's Rest. Throughout the series, that move has always required incredible skill to use successfully. In this game, the three aforementioned moves deal substantially more damage/knockback and are 10x easier to land. You're also not left in a helpless state after using them. Please bring out the nerf gun.