Thank you for knowing that lol

There is not a huge gap between them. If you look at the averages, you can see that they're kinda close, but the cutoff for S-tier was 7 (rounded down). Naruto has an average of 6.6 and Fox has an average of 8.2.


Here are the cutoffs (they were rounded down)

S-tier: 7
A-tier: 14
B-tier: 21
C-tier: No cutoff.

4 simple and to point tiers.

So what you're saying is... All I have to do is kick everyone's a** and win some tournies and Bomber will gain more respect? I'm on it coach!

I don't like that way of thinking.
I would rather worship Huey than putting Bomberman top tier if this happens

Damn. Hmmmm Me and Mr. Wright asked Doq about character representation in his tournaments along with which characters win tournaments so it might help with which characters are having their meta game developed.

I don't enter anything as well so I can't help in Wario's representation in online tournaments which could said for the other characters I play.

Well when the full game comes out, we will truly be doing tier list off of tournaments and MUs.

I'd like to point out that gaps in the average placement are a bad way to distinguish tiers that happen to work in this list but not always. Look at MK: I think he's just very slightly #1, but nearly everyone thinks that, so he has a huge disparity between characters that people are less sure about. It measures certainty, not difference.

With those three in particular, I think you'll find people are sleeping on them. They just don't have the tournament results to convince the rest of the BR yet.

Sleeping on those three? While I respect that you're trying to defend people's opinion, there's zero logic behind those votes for them and was pointing out how silly it is. Maybe they don't lack S-tier qualities, but those qualities aren't as good and have very little room for expansion. But many above them have the ability to expand more. I don't think anyone has the experience or performance to justify those opinion as well. It's either boasting their mains, or online has given them a higher salinity than the Don-Juan Pond.

I still think Lloyd is #1, because MK has trouble in certain match-up (like Pikachu, Mario, and Lloyd himself) because of his light-weight, lack of projectile, and slow air mobility. Where as no other character has truly shown to hold down Lloyd's options, or punish as hard with the safety he has.

Sure MK's light-weight and stuff is a problem but everyone got weaknesses. His agility on the ground make him control the pace of the game + he has the best edgeguard. Don't forget that
MK only has 2 bad matchups while Lloyd has 5-6 and one of them is a 30:70. He's fine where he is.

where as no other people* has truly shown to hold down Lloyd's options , or punish him hard." fixed.

Lloyd is not safe 24/7, i.e his TB Nair does totally look like a maelstrom but there are few frames where Lloyd can't do s*** except getting rekt. Some characters can even attack him while he does that.

EDIT 1 : don't use the "fallacy fallacy" or "personal incredulity" logical fallacies.

If you don't think Yoshi has room for expansion you may be in trouble once someone actually mains him. And as for Zelda, I think she is very similar to Lloyd in that she has easy combos, very large hitboxes, except the difference is that her hitboxes do not "sweep" so they're less effective, however she trades that in for MUCH lower percentage kills, better recovery, better weight, and one of the best offline projectiles in the game.

These three I find have untapped potential and just need a main to enter events and bring that out. I wouldn't be surprised to see an unchanged or slightly changed Zelda/Yoshi in top 5 for Beta.

Speaking as the guy who put 2 for Yoshi and 3 for BM, they have a lot of untapped potential. BM has a great zoning game that rivals even Naruto and IMO the best edgeguarding game in SSF2. Yoshi has an insane combo game and damage output, a better-than-average recovery, and a great shield.

I dunno, a lot of players have dropped Wario after trying to mine for goodies, even some players who have used him longer than I have. I really would like to believe that he's better than shown to be in this list, but players dropping him, figuring out all there is I could, and all the struggles he has to go through just to land his "broken jank" against the majority of the cast hasn't changed my mind about him at all. I especially hear people saying how his combos are cheap and shouldn't go from 0% to >100% so easily, but that's only cause of Waft, which relieves Wario of all the stress he's had to deal with just to punish an opening (lmao). Imo his punish game and Chomp are the only things keeping him above Chibi.

Btw, I smh when I look at this list cause Wario has more than 3 bad MUs in each tier.

I use Yoshi, but like the rest of my mains I take a break with him so I can work on my secondaries which I have been doing lot lately.

The same goes with Wario, who is my secondary, but I have been focusing on my Sheik, Marth, Fox and Jiggs a lot.

How does Meta Knight have only two when Mario and Pikachu can takes him? In this match-up, great advantage both has is occupying air space that he can't reach in a quick enough time safely, or without risking multiple jumps. And this way, MK is most time grounded or short hopping just above it. This leads to be able shoot fire-ball/thunder-jolt from his blind spot. This forces him to the likely scenarios of: a). attempt approaching and challenge projectile, b). retreats away from projectile, c). multi-jump above them d). shield.

Risk/Reward of each choice:
a). Least favorable; potential miss-timing can lead to being hit, giving opponent more pressure or follow-ups / possibly often the best punish and waste their jump(s)/air position.
b). Even favor; Loses stage position and could be force off-stage, give opponent pressure / avoids damage and potential follow-ups entirely.
c). Even/Non-favorable; may get above projectiles, or suffer more. Can challenge aerial-attack attempt if made.
d.) Even/More favorable; could take shield pressure from more projectiles or shield-grab/cross-up. / Is able to immediately take dodge/Out-of-Shield options if offensive approach on shield is made.

This is just the main issue MK can face against them. Both can challenge his movement on the ground. But both have better knockback attack suited to KO him easier, high damage outputs, and weave around platforms better. They don't even have to approach Meta Knight either. They can force him to commit and take the risk first.

I studied so much about both characters. It's just other character have "untapped potential," that shows they character accomplish task and solves the same problems in match-up they can, but with more efficiently or with being less likely for their weaknesses to be exploited in moments. "Untapped potential," is also way to generic. People continuously use such term like 'these are the only characters with untapped potential' they knowledge are being under utilized, as well as see that "potential," but doesn't fully consider just how much the weakness of the character actually hold back that potential.

Explain. Dins are not really effective for zoning, yet people still try to zone with it. It's a good projectile all-around, but for every utilize function it has, there's a near equal accessible weakness/drawback. Controlled flight paths are still easily visible, predicable, and avoidable even when recovering. And a lot of simple tilts destroy it when it's explode.

Chibi has longer average overall range, moderately fast mobility, and his combo game into Dair tech-setups & gimps are still very solid. But Chibi can't feasibly attain any higher grounds with online-play. I'm mostly stumped on the bottom characters because each has a potential expansive quality that could put them at the top of low-tier at least.

How would you guys described the tiers? S Tier: Mostly tournament viable, A Tier: Tournament viable, but has problems holding back and may have trouble with characters in S Tier, B Tier: Possible Tournament viable, but requires a lot practice and knowledge of MUs while having lots of problems, C Tier: Slim Chance of tournament viable, tons of problems and has very poor MUS with characters above them.

Or B Tier and C Tier: Characters with poorly developed metagames and has a ton of untapped potential.

Edit:What gave me this idea was looking at Melee's current tier list how it tiers were organized.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)#Eleventh_tier_list_.28July_26th.2C_2013.29