As A Mega-Man main I do know these things. But I do feel like his disadvantage state is a lot worse than you may think. Since Matchup-Wise he doesn't really do all that great against most top tiers anyways. And Being Slow again means that mega man can be chased around a lot since he requires a lot of staying by the corner to take stage control. For Side-B Detonation he needs to get the grab and since he is slower than Bowser even, he'll be predictable doing so and the opponent can jump up and airdodge or get hit by crash bomb which is perfectly fine until ridiculously high percents like 180%. Mega Man's neutral is also somewhat matchup dependent due to his poor speed and you know... reflectors. Definently top 10, but not top 5.

Also Speaking of which. I also disagree a bit with 's placement. And regarding his kill power, he actually has back-throw as a kill throw technically and he does have some kill confirms off of grab. And the fact that he has a good neutral helps with in terms of racking up damage and safety + consistency in general. Drarky and Skailler have also helped with the metagame and also has a pretty busted recovery, an amazing projectile game, and so much more in general. Maybe put him a little out of bottom 10 or just barely bottom 10.

Now let me tell you why that's bullarky;

Slow;
None of y'all are soaping/dash-cancelling, are you.
Sandbag may not be fast
But he's definitely not slow.
Soaping almost doubles his speed on the ground (To be about the same speed as Mario), 4/5 of his Aerials come out insanely fast (And as Sandbag you're gonna be shorthopping a lot) and Sanddash in the air lets him shift his momentum around as much as he pleases (And using Left/Right Aerial Sanddash, you can cancel it instantly into another move)
He's quite the speedy and unpredictable fellow when played right.

Recovery;
None of y'all are labbing ways to recover with Sandbag, are you.
Down B and Side B are insanely useful.
Angling and B-Reversing your Up B can save your life constantly (Such as using Up B at 100% almost at the direct middle of Waiting Room and surviving)
Getting good at Teching (Which is quite easy to do in SSF2, mind you) is definitely a feature you need to get good with
And saving your Double Jump until just the right moment (I.E. not using it immediately like you would every other character ever, play smart) is just the tool you need for getting back on the ledge or mixing up the recovery when you're almost there

I'm sorry, but
As a guy who plays Sandbag alot
Y'all just need to--boy I'm gonna hate myself for saying this--get better.

Sandbag is definitely a character unlike the rest of the Smash Roster
Ya gotta think unique, with him.
Any "Normal" means are not the means you should use*.
Unconventionalism is our motto here at CLEOD-BOT Corps.

*there are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part this applies

Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong here. You're f*** wrong. You're absolutely f*** wrong. You have discovered the rabbit hole, and I'm about to f*** drag you through the length of it to show you exactly how deep, down to the f*** millimeter, this goes.


Kirby in 9b wasn't that good to begin with. He was solidly low tier, low-mid if you ask my 9b self, Bowler, or someone equally optimistic. By no means was he bad, and by no means was he unviable, but he had a few fatal weaknesses: Lack of mobility and lack of range. Beta solves this by upping his speed drastically, but he still doesn't have very good aerial acceleration, so his only true mobility buff was grounded mobility. Unfortunately, one of the few things 9b Kirby had going for him was nerfed: His multihits.

DAIR- In 9b, this was a combo tool, and it allowed Kirby to string an aerial combo into a grounded move, like Fsmash, Usmash, Dash attack, Grab, Inhale, etc. It was a good move. In Beta, they completely changed how it works. In 9b, it was a high-hitstun continuous hitbox that hit 8 times without ever being inactive outside of startup and endlag. In Beta, it's a hitbox 2/3 the size of 9b's dair hitbox that hits once every 2-3 frames or so and has just enough hitstun for it to connect to the next hit. This is a bad thing because Kirby's dair landing animation isn't 2 frames long, and even if it was, the odds of you hitting the opponent the exact frame before you land aren't in your favor, and in this hypothetical scenario, once you get on the ground in idle animation with your opponent having 1 frame of hitstun left, then what? None of Kirby's moves are frame one. You're gonna have to run away and hope desperately that you somehow don't get punished. Kirby can escape the taunt>get bodied combo through tauntcancelling. What he can't escape is the dair>get bodied combo.

FAIR- In 9b, this was a good tool for spacing and combos. The weak hits of fair could combo into grounded moves if executed properly, and the strong hit of fair had a nice, big hitbox and could be used for spacing. Also, you could easily enough connect the last two hits of fair off of a full hop or a midair jump if executed properly. In Beta, the weak hits of fair have considerably more knockback growth and now no longer serve Kirby as a combo tool, 2nd hit of fair doesn't connect into 3rd hit of fair out of a full hop or midair jump at higher percents, and although the move can be used for spacing, the third hitbox seems to have shrunk slightly, making it less useful for spacing. I could be wrong on this last bit, someone please confirm or deconfirm.

DASH ATTACK- In 9b, each weak hit propelled the enemy forward slightly, basically ensuring that if the opponent didn't know how to SDI, they'd be trapped in it for the entirety of the move. Being a constant, long-lasting hitbox, it was a great roll/tech coverage option. In Beta, the weak hits deal 0 knockback. That means that an opponent who doesn't know how to SDI is only likely to be hit by 6 hits of the move, and an opponent who knows how to SDI gets a solid half a second to punish you hard. (also in 9b it had a nice amount of range and in Beta the range was nerfed.)

The common theme among Kirby's multihits being nerfed is a loss of trappability, meaning that moves that were previously good are no longer good simply due to the fact that the opponent isn't hit with the full impact of the move. Of course this hurts Kirby, but it doesn't exactly make him bottom-tier. In fact, one could easily argue that Kirby's grounded mobility buff actually makes him considerably better due to the fact that his ground game as a whole has been buffed tremendously. Kirby gained something huge with Beta: a great grab game. Kirby now has two excellent combo throws that combo into hammer and other aerials, and the two actually cover eachother's DI, so Kirby's grab is now one big DI mixup. This is a buff in so many ways, and both throws also combo into Inhale, which now combos into Fair in addition to Bair. Despite this, there's one thing holding Kirby back even more now than ever that's been holding him back since 9b:

KIRBY HAS NO f*** RANGE


Kirby's range was nerfed even further. I already mentioned with each of Kirby's multihits that the range was nerfed. I'm not gonna bother listing off every move that got a range nerf. It'd take far too long. Instead I'm just going to leave you with a sandbag emote and call it a day.




TL;DR: You're wrong, Kirby has better grounded mobility and overall ground game but his multihits have less trappability and he has no range

Boxes do not support special characters
At all
Not even ,
So
Don't

Yo Dr. Doop I don't even think Boxes work anymore
@devs can someone please fix this

EDIT: They work, just not with apostrophes inside of the box= part. Kinda dumb but ok

I play a little Sandbag myself (I'll fite you) and disagree with the placement, but it's not ridiculous either. Sandbag's recovery is only good if your opponent does nothing: as long as they cover side-B and up-B, the instant you get out of down-B range, you get rekt.

Soaping makes Sandbag decently fast, but it's not a substitute for the movement a character like Marth or Fox has: not even close. It's fast over long distances, but what matters most is the short distances and micro-spacing that dash-dancing provides. Additionally, put Sandbag in the air and he's not very fast. He has a sick dash-off that gives him a ton of airspeed, but that's pretty useless most of the time.

The main problem with Sandbag is that he's so easy to punish, and it's hard for him to return it. He has combos, but not combos in the way that most characters have on him: brutal strings that lead to tons of damage or getting Sandbag offstage (which is pretty easily death against a ton of characters). He has a really good grab and some fast aerials, but he's susceptible to being shut down and dominated by characters like the spacies.

I think Sandbag is higher than this tier list has. However, I can also see why he's there right now.

But overall, this is one of the weaker tier list I have seen. While its not an obnoxiously bad one, it has a lot of flawed placements in general and I'm suprised that the Backroom of all things (Which is strict as hell on its applicants even rejecting good candidates that are top level players) made this tier list. This should have been A LOT better tbh. And I'm just thoroughly disappointed with what they came up with.

Alrighty then let's heckin' go mypersonmydude, Sandbag dittos are fun as s***


This is why you Store The Double Jump
You can just sortof "eeeehhh" onto the stage
Or just sortof "eeehhhhh" away from an edge guard (And possibly follow up with a Side B whilst they're endlagging)
Double Jump is Sandbag's most useful recovery tool. It must be used wisely.


Luckily by the power of soaping you can turn around on a dime
Like a literal dime, it's just--bam--instant
Quite fun.


The power of Sanddash
Plus like I said earlier
Sandbag really likes them shorthops, especially with his blazingly fast aerials
You don't really wanna be goin' up into the air all that much
If you do, Sanddash Upwards (When used on the ground) goes higher than a fullhop and Sanddash Sideways (In the Air) is a great way to get speed going/escape some tight situations
But also as I said earlier, he isn't that speedy.
He's not fast, but he ain't slow.


Sadly a good chunk of this is because Priority/Clanking isn't patched in yet (Next patch, where u at) and similarly to Luffy, his entire body is a hurtbox
Sadly, unlike Luffy, Luffy has skinny limbs that stretch and give him range
All Sandbag's got is the skewing tool


Luckily to mostly compensate for this, Sandbag's grab can get 28% guaranteed when fresh (Since Down Throw > NAir is true at literally any % ever until Down Throw kills on its own) and Up Air can lead to some fun antics, but in terms of getting higher % than 40-ish Sandbag doesn't have that much luck
And FAir is an amazing tool for getting foes offstage since it comes out quick and hits hard, so while it isn't much of a Combo Tool unless it's at really early %, it's still nice to have


This is debatable.
But not necessarily "Debatable" as in "Someone in this situation is wrong eventually," but moreso
It depends.
MU knowledge and getting comfy with how Sandbag's recovery works is a pretty big factor, but that's only something the Metagame and Sandbag Users can develop.


This is very true. Very, very true.
Characters like Falco (Not necessarily Fox since his lasers aren't that much of a hamper, Falco's really hurt Sandbag's feelings) and Sora really do not like Sandbag's business.
And if you don't know what to do, a good PAC-MAN can completely destroy Sandbag.
Quite the problem, it is.


This is also true.
Sandbag is a young fighter who definitely has potential
But he isn't the best.
He'll never be one of "The best."
Will he be viable?
I don't know. Probably not, but he'd be a spicy choice.
But he isn't complete garbage, that's for sure.
Underdeveloped little potatosack, he is.

Sandbag's definitely viable, as in I would have no problem entering a tournament as solo Sandbag, and there's no reason I couldn't win if I did (besides being bad). Every character in SSF2 is viable.

Perhaps I don't understand exactly what you mean when you say soaping, but I don't see how fast turnaround can make Sandbag dash-dance in any real way. His initial dash is, well, trash, and all the fancy cancel stuff you can do doesn't really work for dash-dancing quickly as I use it. Perhaps you can clarify.

Sanddashing is cool and all, but it requires a full hop to do an aerial afterwards, and so you run into the problems with Sandbag's aerial mobility: he really can't move very much in the air, so as long as your opponent stays away from the spots you can hit with a Sanddash you can't really weave around them. His SH is good, but he doesn't really have an answer to a character like Puff that can just stay in the air above him and weave around him.

The real difference between Soaping and Dashdancing for Sandbag is a bit odd
A Normal Fighter's Dashdancing has you do it in a bit of a small space
Let's make that space

about this wide.
When gotten the rhythm down right, Sandbag's normal "Dashdance" has him just sorta squatting in place and turning around back and forth, but Dash Attacks and speedy jumps can still be executed, so it's about

not really any distance at all.
If Sandbag were to be soaping and moving back and forth with relatively quick timing, it'd be about

This wide. A bit wider than just dashdancing...
If you want to be a bit thinner, you could, well, Walkdance.
The basic jist of it is simple. You dashdance, but without dashing.
Just move left, back to neutral, right, back to neutral, repeat.
Little hops.
It's a bit slower than dashdancing (Obviously) but I'd say it's about

This wide. Just a bit shorter.
All of his ways of simulating dashdancing are very strange
And honestly not all that useful aside from soaping
But
they exist?

Should this thread be stickied?

Megaman is not anywhere at the level of anybody else in the 3 uppers tiers, he is slow as f*** and can be simply outcamped by everyone else. Ichigo placemente is supper debatable too, same for tails. Kinda agree with most of the rest tho, cept for chibi robo, he is way too low for such a fast and high range character.

MM is literally the best character in terms of pure zoning capabilities, sure hes slow but it doesn't matter when he can consistently win neutral and make it super hard for the opponent to get out of disadvantage due to his stage control, in other words you really cant be out-camped by another character while playing MM.

I feel like a lot of MM players are underrating just how good his stage presence is as a whole, even without his three special moves for spacing and traps he has great aerials and good damage racking alongside really really good kill moves.

MM players also underrate his close up game, nair is a fast and decent get off me option, pellets at close range are fast and combo into lots of things and his disjointed jab is great.

Also the thing with MM's up b is that, not only does it have heavy armor, but the player can cancel it with any aerial. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT
This pretty much means MM can recover in most situations, and if he feels threatened he can just throw out a nair to avoid any punishment. Add this all to a character who's rather heavy and you have an annoying, zoning character who isn't afraid to get up close, has a great punish game, great kill options and kill setups and lives forever. He rightfully deserves his placing in that tier.

I wholeheartly disagree with this statement, I dont think megaman has the best neutral as you are making it to be and his stage control isnt as good as you are making it be.