troubling MUs just means you need to go to the lab a little longer for that specific character. I only see like... Rem doing that. And Rem just won a tournament not too long ago with Tails.

What did you review to do your tier list?
One character's overall strength?
Or one's matchups?

TSON I don't agree with that.

a 'little extra lab time' isn't gonna mean I'm any harder to edgeguard for MK, and it doesn't mean I'm gonna be able to stop him nairing me for free all the time.

some matchups are just bad, and there's not much you can do about it. see: peach vs. puff in melee.
Armada used f*** young link for that matchup!

Axe as well.

Lol I've gone to the lab plenty of times vs a specific character. And I've only gotten second a couple of times, but then again, Tails is better than Peach. No disrespect to Rem tho, he's awesome.

Rem puts in the work, cetainly, but Tails is also a really solid character.

Chibi-Robo is not viable in the hypothetical 20XX of v0.9b, and there are almost certainly a few other characters in the same boat.

sometimes the result from your lab time is that you realize what secondary you need, or that you need one. otherwise your hard matchup should become easier.

@Lunary: When I submitted mine, I tried to measure competitive viability. That means a mixture of how easy the character is to play, matchups, whether they have one character that totally wrecks them, etc.


About the whole viability thing: I believe strongly that every character is viable. Even characters like Falcon that have extremely difficult MU's, there's a big difference between struggling in an MU and being nonviable in tournament. Low-tiers in Melee are not viable because they have MU's in excess of 90-10 against common characters or lose badly to most or all of the high tiers, sometimes both. No character in SSF2 is like that.

the real issue is that with a wip game like this its so much easier to bawww and expect me to fix your characters shortcomings next update than get really really good with a character that you really really like

: (

Play with your favorite character. If you simply play a character to win, you'll never be satiated.

Tails forever~

Couldn't have said it better Mr. Samurai.

I don't agree with the placement of some of these characters. For instance Lloyd. Dude has great combo potential but might as well be Little Mac. His recovery is worse than Sora's in some cases. Lloyd at best is B-tier. Same goes for Yoshi. Catch this dude without his second jump and bye bye Yoshi. Once again B-tier material at best. I'd also argue that Tails is superior to Pickachu and Black Mage. Just saying.

The same can said about Falco in Melee, but look where he is on Melee's tier list.

Recovery may be a factor, but it doesn't make someone a horrible as some would think. Also Yoshi is still good even though he relies on his second jump to much. Lloyd can be sent off stage, but he has a hard to gimp recovery unless you have a disjointed hitbox.

You can't just say Tails is superior to Black Mage and Pikachu without explanation. Just saying.

You say this, but you don't go into detail why. Yes Lloyd is basically dead when offstage (if you know how to edgeguard), but because of his terrible offstage game, he has a great onstage game. Almost none of his moves have noticeable endlag, meaning it's hard to punish them, and he has an outstanding Neutral game that can triumph others with ease with tools such as demon fang, and grave blade. Tiger blade isn't really that much of a recovery tool (granted it's one of the worst recoveries in the game) but using it offensively can be very effective due to how safe it is.

For your Yoshi argument, he has Double Jump Armor for that exact reason. Just because someone doesn't have that good of a good recovery doesn't make them a bad character.

And you say Tails is superior to Pika and BM... why is that exactly?

A good Yoshi player essentially never gets gimped from losing his DJ. You can Egg Throw until you're near the stage and then use the armor to get on safely, which is very difficult to punish.

Lloyd just shuts down a huge part of the cast with his near-lagless disjoints: some characters just can't ever challenge him.

Pika and BM are far superior to Tails: Pika has insane priority, a great offstage game, good punishes, a projectile, and great mobility, and BM has an excellent zoning game, a good recovery, the best edgeguarding in SSF2, and good punishes. I think Tails struggles against swords and has problems in neutral against some characters.

BR pls.