Is a tier list based on the metagame at the moment of the roster hypothetical's full potential?

You have to suppose is a mix from both seeing that there's really not many good representation of Pikachu at the current meta, yet you look at his spot and you know that he has the potential to be there so no one really complains.


But For B tier atleast, like seriously now. Joey confirms~

It's a mix of both, though potential is weighted more heavily. For example, even if a Samus player started dominating the tournament scene, I would be surprised to see her move up anywhere past mid-low B tier. I would love for this to be true, but I simply cannot believe it. He's the perfect example of a character built with an amalgamation of tools that each seem strong at first but ultimately don't amount to much because they don't mesh well. For example, he has one of the best forward airs in the game in terms of spacing, but outside of extraordinary circumstances, he'll never get anything more from landing it than a one or two-hit followup into moves that don't KO. He has to win the neutral so many more times than his opponents to take a stock, let alone a game, and that's one of many factors that seriously hamper his viability at the theoretical highest level.

Chibi is one of those characters you have to play to understand why they're not as good as other characters. I think Chibi has excellent niche matchups against MK (45-55 IMO) and a couple others because of his range and quick moves, but he has serious trouble against heavyweights and fast-fallers because these characters are balanced with the idea that your opponent will get really heavy punishes. However, Chibi is at the perfect intersection of falling speed and weight to get really heavy punishes landed: many characters can land heavyweight setups (uthrow -> uair with Fox or throw combos into fair with Sheik at higher percents) that kill at lightweight percents (uthrow -> uair kills Chibi really early, fair from Sheik does too, as do DK's fair from dthrow or uair, fsmash from throw combos from Marth, etc.) I think Chibi really needs to have a huge advantage in the neutral to do well, because the punish game is usually cripplingly uneven.

Maybe it's just me but Chibi feels so much better offline. If I were you create an offline tier list I might put him above Wario, Sora, and plethora of other characters. Then again I only play against computers.

Playing against CPUs is never a viable resource for finding a chars true potential, so that would be kinda pointless to make a tier list based on CPUs. (You hear me sonicfan?)

Additionally, I think if anything Chibi gets worse offline. Your punishes won't really improve much because you're already working at the limit of the character, while Falcons or Foxes will eat you alive off of hits.

I sortve disagree with the Naruto placing too me he has never seemed X tier material Low A tier at best

If anything, I see Naruto rising by a spot or two. I haven't seen anyone abuse Rasenshuriken, standing in Up B clones or dash attack to the point that they can be. This character is bonkers.

I hope no one thinks is still B tier. ;p

Well, the players that do this stuff do ONLY this stuff and make no attempt to improve their game beyond throwing clones while standing in up-B and unleash an endless barrage of utilts. There are much better Naruto players that do not do this stuff, but if a Naruto player that was solid in other respects really used the cheesier aspects of the character they would go far.

weaker players are irrelevant, you have to consider the character's full potential for tier lists

you are right though

Indeed, Godot. It seems that the better a Naruto player is, the less they abuse his rediculously overpowered tools. Maybe it's because they realize how lame he is at top level or how fun he is without those things, I don't know. Either way, theoretically optimized Naruto is a terrifying beast that 0-deaths you more easily than Donkey Kong and has a better neutral than 90% of the cast. I could honestly see this character in top 3 down the road.

You guys are totally right that the better Narutos specifically don't spam, because it's more fun for you and your opponent (and you will have a better reputation), especially because competitive players have a tag and some accountability for how they play: they can't just annoy the s*** out of someone and never interact with them again. This makes Naruto spam seem pretty bad, but I think you guys are right that if you optimized Naruto's punish game (read: dash attack x5 -> utilt x3 -> Rasenshuriken -> ded) and his neutral (read: uspec mine in front of you, dspec aerial approaches, side-spec to harass and charge Rasenshuriken), he would be extremely formidable. As it is he's already pretty good (side-spec starts combos and harasses, aerial dspec is a good approach, dthrow is the best tech-chase throw in the game, and he has a couple combos with his aerials).

p.sure naruto would be top 3 in the tier list if a good player actually abused his mechanics

like really easy combos, low % kills, guaranteed rasen charge from every kill
strong neutral with zoning

great aerials/normals even without using the other s***

I think it's just nobody wants to be 'that guy' who plays super lame and abuses everything