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Tier List Discussion 
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TSF.Strife wrote:
BandanaDeeMain wrote:
Um, you can just use Up-B to approach below 50%, and use Skull Bash above 50% for your approach. And if he gets an up-throw he can kill confirm with Up-B. And you can use neutral-B for edgeguarding above 50% and you can use Thunder for kill confirms above 50%. Point is, Pichu does have approach options. And Psycho, Kirby is DESTROYED by Pichu. Pichu has better grabs and his neutral b is ONLY useful for edgeguarding/zoning, making it not very useful for kirby. Pichu also has Nair strings like in Melee which are pretty good. So Pichu IS amazing.

Right, time to get the old Backroom Character Analyst circuits going again.

1. No you really can't. Up-B has landing lag, and it's really not advisable due to how telegraphed it is compared to Pikachu. Also, it's hella unsafe on shield until you hit Discharge but you're never going to approach with it unless your opponent is at the ledge. Most of the time, you're gonna be using Up-B to bait opponents into your shield.
2. Skull Bash is a terrible approach, it's hella unsafe on shield and his speed is better. I've just spent the last few hours fighting TheFancySlasher's Pichu and his main method of approach was to dash dance in and actually use his run speed. It wasn't good, but it was a damn sight better than Skull Bash because I literally just threw out my dash attack and put him in a recovery situation whenever he tried to use it.
3. Electro Ball isn't that good for edgeguarding, it's for baiting opponents into shield so you can get a grab. It's really not that good at it either. The best you can do with Electro Ball is take somebody's jump, and Nair's just better at that even with it's s*** range. Furthermore, Electro Ball only ever goes at two angles and they're pretty easy to avoid for certain characters.
4. Thunder's kill confirm potential is awful. I didn't even DI and Thunder didn't even kill me at 90%. If you get hit with the bolt, it's s***, and if you get hit with the shockwave, then it's still not great. Literally, you wanna use it for edgeguarding.

5. Kirby is absolutely not destroyed by Pichu in the slightest.

Quote:
And Psycho, Kirby is DESTROYED by Pichu. Pichu has better grabs and his neutral b is ONLY useful for edgeguarding/zoning, making it not very useful for kirby. Pichu also has Nair strings like in Melee which are pretty good.

Pichu does not have better grabs. Kirby has two extremely solid combo throws including one that gives him a kill confirm into Hammer and another that sets up for Kirby's incredible regrab combos, and he has another decent low% combo throw and on top of that has two kamikaze throws which makes his edgeguarding a nightmare. Pichu's neutral-b works amazingly on Kirby because it allows him a bit of cover fire which Kirby can lay across the stage and abuse better because he gets so much off a grab. It's very useful for Kirby. And whilst Pichu may have Nair strings, Kirby has Dthrow -> Hammer which kills Pichu at 55%. Kirby has a better neutral because Inhale allows him to benefit from the grab changes in a way that Pichu just can't because Pichu's grab range is s***, and he has better range, meaning RAR Bair as an approach or walling too shuts down Pichu.

Kirby actually beats/does well vs disjoint characters like Lloyd and has manageable matchups vs characters like Chibi-Robo. Pichu gets destroyed by many of them, and Lloyd s*** on Pichu so hard that it's not even funny. Pretty much any character with a disjoint s*** on Pichu because he has the worst range in the game. Pretty much any zoner s*** on Pichu because they can easily wall him out. Pretty much any character s*** on Pichu because they're fighting against a character with non-existent range in a game and meta where range is a pretty key trait to being good and where grabs literally beat attacks for free because someone thought that was a good idea.

It's pretty telling when the #1 player in this patch so far is a Kirby main and there are barely any notable Pichu mains to speak of. It's also really telling how you're literally the only person at this point who still thinks Pichu is amazing.

Pichu sucks. I've spent ages trying to explain it to you, but evidently you're still incredibly in denial.
Lermonz wrote:
I don't think Pichu is amazing, but he's scary. He's so small and fast that it can be intimidating when he plays very rushdown like. I've been hit by many run-up-shorthop-nairs, it doesn't lead into much (i think), but it's difficult to work around. And because he dies so early and becomes so crazy after 50%, it can be scary to be in a lot of places with Pichu, but Pichu is just as scared. He's just the most extreme glass cannon character I can think of.

Rushdown Pichu really isn't the optimal way to play Pichu. He's literally better as a hit-and-run or a speedy grappler type character.


Meleewaluigi isn't #1, FCR-wise sure but despite how objective the FCR is, the amount of variables there are towards FCR placements makes it where it honestly isn't even that relevant anymore regarding who is better than another person. Meleewaluigi is like top 30 but that's sorta it imo given how most top level players haven't entered a major yet. Just something to clear up.

Also tier list post time (The meta is new so not every placement is accurate):

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Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:50 pm
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>Ness in c+ and pichu being worse than sandbag

hold the fck up

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:41 am
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RydOmega wrote:
>Ness in c+ and pichu being worse than sandbag

hold the fck up

Ness in C+ is accurate to be honest. He still has some good stuff, but some good stuff was literally all he had last patch plus his death chaingrab on most of the cast. Now he doesn't have that and he's now not particularly great.

Anyway, now to criticise Play's list. (Also yes, that point was fair, but I was going off the FCR purely and I should have included that)
playridise wrote:
[ Image ]


Let's start on a few things:
:sheik: should be #2. To be fair, you've got them in top 4 anyway so that's good enough I suppose.
:lloyd: is not Top 10. His flaws become much more apparent once you begin playing him more and more. The Demon Fang nerf hurts his neutral a fair bit especially with the decreased range and increased endlag, his recovery isn't great and he's also got some wack hitboxes and a lot of royzones. Also Up-B sucks.
:pikachu: and :pit: are a little too high. Pit's still fairly average and Pikachu struggles to kill a lot of the time.
:isaac: is terrible. Bottom 5. Terrible disadvantage state, mediocre neutral due to awful frame data, Vine nerfs and gravity hurt all his kill confirms and his recovery still sucks.
:sora: is a little too high. Should be mid tier, around where BDee is. Gimmicks only get you so far.
:wario: is far too low. Wario's still solid high tier material, especially as he's much faster and he still has some really potent punish combos with Waft and Uair.
:jigglypuff: and :bandanadee: need to swap. BDee sucks. Like, really badly.

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:57 pm
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BDee is better then Jiggs. Also why is Fox in C+? He got better and was top 10 before. Also Tails should be a bit higher

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:17 pm
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
BDee is better then Jiggs. Also why is Fox in C+? He got better and was top 10 before. Also Tails should be a bit higher

1. No, he isn't. BDee would be better if he actually had kill confirms. He doesn't. Jiggs is fast as f***, has good range which puts her in good standing on trades and has rest setups off her throws which is useful in the grab meta.

2. Fox got nerfed, what are you on about? Nair has more landing lag, Uthrow -> Uair now definitely isn't true at all. Fire Fox got it's hitboxes worsened which means it's easy as f*** to edgeguard, and forward throw got nerfed twice. He got nerfed and other characters got buffed whilst the meta really shifted away from Fox.

3. Eh, Tails is fine there. I'd say the characters above him are a little worse, like Zelda, Bowser and Pit, but that's not a bad place for Tails given the nerfs he did receive.

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:55 pm
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TSF.Strife wrote:
BandanaDeeMain wrote:
BDee is better then Jiggs. Also why is Fox in C+? He got better and was top 10 before. Also Tails should be a bit higher

1. No, he isn't. BDee would be better if he actually had kill confirms. He doesn't. Jiggs is fast as f***, has good range which puts her in good standing on trades and has rest setups off her throws which is useful in the grab meta.

2. Fox got nerfed, what are you on about? Nair has more landing lag, Uthrow -> Uair now definitely isn't true at all. Fire Fox got it's hitboxes worsened which means it's easy as f*** to edgeguard, and forward throw got nerfed twice. He got nerfed and other characters got buffed whilst the meta really shifted away from Fox.

3. Eh, Tails is fine there. I'd say the characters above him are a little worse, like Zelda, Bowser and Pit, but that's not a bad place for Tails given the nerfs he did receive.


Once again, TSF.Strife, I agree with you.

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Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:49 pm
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TSF.Strife wrote:
RydOmega wrote:
>Ness in c+ and pichu being worse than sandbag

hold the fck up

Ness in C+ is accurate to be honest. He still has some good stuff, but some good stuff was literally all he had last patch plus his death chaingrab on most of the cast. Now he doesn't have that and he's now not particularly great.

Anyway, now to criticise Play's list. (Also yes, that point was fair, but I was going off the FCR purely and I should have included that)
playridise wrote:
[ Image ]


Let's start on a few things:
:sheik: should be #2. To be fair, you've got them in top 4 anyway so that's good enough I suppose.
:lloyd: is not Top 10. His flaws become much more apparent once you begin playing him more and more. The Demon Fang nerf hurts his neutral a fair bit especially with the decreased range and increased endlag, his recovery isn't great and he's also got some wack hitboxes and a lot of royzones. Also Up-B sucks.
:pikachu: and :pit: are a little too high. Pit's still fairly average and Pikachu struggles to kill a lot of the time.
:isaac: is terrible. Bottom 5. Terrible disadvantage state, mediocre neutral due to awful frame data, Vine nerfs and gravity hurt all his kill confirms and his recovery still sucks.
:sora: is a little too high. Should be mid tier, around where BDee is. Gimmicks only get you so far.
:wario: is far too low. Wario's still solid high tier material, especially as he's much faster and he still has some really potent punish combos with Waft and Uair.
:jigglypuff: and :bandanadee: need to swap. BDee sucks. Like, really badly.


Alright, for Sheik I can see that but honestly you can depict the top 5 in any order as long as Luigi, Sheik, Meta Knight, Peach, and Falco are there.

Might analyze a bit for Lloyd.

Pit is kinda dumb now given that he literally has a back-throw chaingrab that works until around 40% similar to 1.0.2 Goku while still not having too many actual flaws outside of his mediocre mobility. Also his matchup spread is pretty well rounded and good and such. Might research pikachu more.

It's a little hypocritical for you to say that Sora is too high JUST BECAUSE of gimmicks because you know... 1.0.3.2 Pac. But anyways, Sora's gimmick isn't just a thing where he has a chance of laddering the opponent to death, but its rather because his up-air is so lagless and can be comboed into anything which compliments his bounciness such as Neutral-Aerial and even down-special as finishers. Sora is literally just a Mini-Meta Knight now and we know how good Meta Knight is in both Smash 4 and 1.1 but while he doesn't have TOO much to offer outside of that (Also grabs beat attacks so good luck dealing with flowmotion now), its a practical gimmick that works on all kinds of players alongside giving Sora a stupidly huge advantage over certain characters.

While I can see Isaac being lower on my tier list, I definitely don't see him as bottom 5 however. most of Isaac's neutral revolves a lot around forcing the opponent to shield with side-b while it allows for Isaac to be very good at anti-airing the opponent in neutral and this allows for Isaac to get the grab he needs and Isaac is super oppressive once he gets the grab. Also this is better helped with the fact that Isaac is suprisingly fast in terms of mobility so he can constantly reposition himself and his great defensive game helps him deal with a lot of offensive-based characters especially with trades existing making it hard to get Isaac in a disadvantage state. Isaac's great ability to mixup with Move especially with the 1.1 Hand mechanics where you can continue controlling them allows for Isaac to be suprisingly oppressive in neutral in general. Frame Data isn't what always makes a neutral good, but how it is applied. Also Isaac is a swordfighter and he still has kill confirms with up-throw up-air which is even better with the higher gravity overall and backwards hand to Down-Smash for example. Isaac does have flaws of course, but he does a lot more than you may think especially with the buffs Isaac got. Also his frame data got some decent buffs as well so that's good.

The thing about Wario is, while he has a fantastic punish game and while he can kill and Chomp is honestly one of the dumbest bulls**t move in the game once you learn that chomp to grab is a thing. Wario still struggles a bit compared to other characters to be honest. Wario still has a pretty awful neutral because even with mobility buffs it honestly isn't enough to really help Wario out much in neutral and Wario still has very linear range causing him to commit a lot in neutral and he is SUPER prone to shieldgrab as well. Wario is also relatively easy to combo, oppress, and just plain camp out. He has the comeback factor, but Wario is overall too inconsistent to make that comeback factor always reliable. Also Wario's matchup spread is overall pretty bad as well due to these factors. Also Up-Throw Up-Air got nerfed in 1.1 due to Up-Throw dealing more knockback at higher percents and some of his combo moves like Up-Tilt got nerfed so they no longer combo properly so there's that. Wario's definitely not bad but his pros definitely don't outweigh his cons imo.

Bandana Dee is actually pretty good from what I've seen. Bandana Dee's combination of a small hurtbox, great aerial drift (It's ACTUALLY really good), disjoints with lots of Active Frames (Especially Forward-Aerial), and surprisingly good frame data overall makes Bandana Dee really threatening in neutral which is something not a lot of people give Bandana Dee credit for. Bandana Dee's light weight may be more of an issue than it is a strength, but it at least helps Bandana Dee escape a lot of confirms making it hard to get Bandana Dee in a bad spot most of the time. Having actual access towards gimping the opponent while still having a fence of pain and honestly not having too many major problems outside of weight and recovery and MAYBE kill power but I'm still pretty sure that Down-Air to Back-Air is still a thing but it requires more timing and Up-Throw to Up-Air might be a 50/50 or something. Also the issue about Jigglypuff is that due to her lacking range while being super light (AND NOT HAVING INHALE), she tends to die easily a lot from trading with the opponent where bandana dee tends to be safe with his disjoints. I just think Bandana Dee works better as a more consistent option and his matchup spread from what I remember isn't too shabby either.

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Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:44 pm
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playridise wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
Also tier list post time (The meta is new so not every placement is accurate):

Attachment:
Anothe_SSF2_Tier_List_50.png

i'd like to share some thoughts on this tier list, for five fighters in particular:
:luigi: LUIGI! DUDE! you're top five now? weren't you, like second worst, in the last tier list?
i don't think luigi would'a been buffed that much. i mean, i'm happy, he's my main.
:pit: same sorta thing with pit, he's a main of mine, but top fifteen? nah bro.
:metaknight: i didn't know this was brawl
:tails: :naruto: both of these fighters, previously the best and worst, are in the same tier now? ookaaayyyy.

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Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:30 am
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Just wondering, why is Game and Watch bottom 2? He is bottom 5, but not bottom 2.

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Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:16 pm
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playridise wrote:
<insert Playridise ranting about tiers again>

Lemme make some points:

:pit: - I feel like Pit's still held back by being too average. Sure, he's good, but he has the chaingrab and...what else exactly? Also, that chaingrab can be DI'd out of very easily which, yeah...his MU spread may be solid, but solid isn't necessarily good.

:sora:
Quote:
It's a little hypocritical for you to say that Sora is too high JUST BECAUSE of gimmicks because you know... 1.0.3.2 Pac. But anyways, Sora's gimmick isn't just a thing where he has a chance of laddering the opponent to death, but its rather because his up-air is so lagless and can be comboed into anything which compliments his bounciness such as Neutral-Aerial and even down-special as finishers. Sora is literally just a Mini-Meta Knight now and we know how good Meta Knight is in both Smash 4 and 1.1 but while he doesn't have TOO much to offer outside of that (Also grabs beat attacks so good luck dealing with flowmotion now), its a practical gimmick that works on all kinds of players alongside giving Sora a stupidly huge advantage over certain characters.

This post has so much misinformation that its hilarious.
1. Sora's up air is not lagless by any stretch of the imagination, in fact, they actually increased it's endlag and landing lag in this patch.
2. Sora can now combo into Command Deck to finish sure, but that's cause it's literally his only good grounded kill move now cause the patch thoroughly gimped all his grounded attacks.
3. Flowmotion is not a command grab, in fact, it actually goes into helpless on shield so it's a free punish.
4. Sora is not remotely comparable to Meta Knight. MK's ladders are not a gimmick, they're a product of his design and his up air's speed and power. Sora's aerial spam s*** is a gimmick because the devs intentionally made it a thing and coded the counterplay into the move.
5. It's not a practical gimmick as Yakumo literally loses to people who know the matchup (no cusses to Yakumo) and TSON himself literally has said that spamming aerials into themselves is not a reliable gimmick as they were designed to be DI'd out of. Furthermore, again, DI mixups and you will not get laddered by any Sora main.
6. PAC-MAN's key glitch also allowed him to make his keepaway game extremely abusable as he could proc Hydrants for free and they were terrifying if your opponent's name wasn't Ness. Furthermore, it allowed PAC-MAN to just stall the opponent out once he had the lead as it was extremely easy for him to just camp by having the hitbox on him that very few characters could actually challenge. That was a very practical gimmick.

:isaac: - Yes, whilst Isaac has shifted somewhat in joining Chibi-Robo as somewhat of a zoning grappler, Isaac still is not a good one. The frame data buffs only extend to Jab, Fair and Dair which only one of them was actually a good buff (Jab) as the other two got landing lag tradeoffs (heck, Dair went from having 2f to 6f of ALR Landing Lag, equivalent to 12/13 frames of landing lag). He really isn't that fast and his defensive game is actually fairly limited out of shield as he only really has Jab and Up Tilt as reliable defence tools. Furthermore, Isaac is a sitting duck in neutral and if he's using Move at anything other than midrange (which again, still loses to shield because it's telegraphed as f***), he is going to get punished. Isaac's neutral is seriously overstated in this piece. Additionally, given Isaac's mediocre range on literally everything bar his tilts, his frame data is a serious problem as literally any other disjoint character (heck, even some non-disjoint characters) can outframe Isaac in Isaac's strongest range, which leads to his terrible disadvantage being exploited hard. Also, Uthrow -> Uair requires you to read DI and considering Isaac's mediocre neutral and awful grab speed, it's not gonna be easy to land that grab.

:wario: - Wario can also just very easily camp for Waft and there are very few characters who can actually give Wario an incentive to approach if they outrange him. Also, given Wario's wonky air mobility, he can also very easily to fadeback bait and punish with little to no trouble, offsetting his neutral issues. Additionally, up throw -> up air wasn't really hit by anything outside of gravity and it'll still work pretty well (heck, it might work even earlier with the additional scaling). Wario's combo game is also fantastic and he only needs one hit to combo into a Waft and seal the stock (or just combo into anything and seal the stock). Given how his down tilt (which is an excellent neutral poke and combo starter) is now frame 2, I can see Wario's using that as their go-to starter for other combos. On top of that, Corkscrew is now a legitimate finisher with it's increased scaling and good multihit linking.

:bandanadee: - Forward Air got nerfed back to it's 1.0.2 status and it's now very easy to fall out of the hits even accounting for BDee's aerial drift. Furthermore, BDee's frame data being good is offset by the fact that they now only have a few actually useful disjointed moves (fair, uair, dair and utilt). BDee's weight still leaves him vulnerable to combos as well as he's extremely light but also gets juggled for free as his landing options are super predictable. Fences of Pain still have holes and BDee's is the worst as he has to commit hard to get one going which inevitably leads to him dying due to his recovery sucking balls. Dair also lost almost all of his kill confirm potential and uthrow -> upair can be very easily DI'd away to screw the kill confirm over.

:jigglypuff: - On the other hand, Jiggs has good range, rest confirms off her throws which is seriously good in the grab metagame. Jiggs can also chaingrab some characters and has a pretty good kill throw in her forward throw as well as some very good edgeguarding. Yes, she does not benefit from trades as much as she should, and yes, she dies early, however, given the recent gimping of BDee's main spacing tool and the fact that BDee's kill power and recovery got completely murdered by gravity and the dair changes and that he has no reliable way to set up into his confirms because his up throw also recently got gimped back to it's 1.0.2 status and it makes it very hard to argue against a character who is also much faster and has some things that are a huge benefit in the current meta.

I'm also gonna have a look at my tier list again. Expect to see one soon

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New Tier List
Image okay Pichu sucks i get it. Also to Psycho: Stop just agreeing with what Strife says, come up with your own opinion, and take critism, but don't just say "I agree" 5 billion times. Besides, post a tier list. I want to see your thoughts.

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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
New Tier List
[ Image ] okay Pichu sucks i get it. Also to Psycho: Stop just agreeing with what Strife says, come up with your own opinion, and take critism, but don't just say "I agree" 5 billion times. Besides, post a tier list. I want to see your thoughts.

:naruto: Need to be Dead Last Tier.

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Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:47 pm
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
New Tier List
[ Image ]
Okay Pichu sucks i get it. Also to Psycho: Stop just agreeing with what Strife says, come up with your own opinion, and take critism, but don't just say "I agree" 5 billion times. Besides, post a tier list. I want to see your thoughts.


I agree with this sentiment. Agreeing with me is all well and good, but constantly feeding the whole "I agree with you but have nothing to add of my own thoughts" somewhat makes you look like a sheep.

Now, as for your current tier list, it's actually pretty solid. I only really have a couple of major criticisms.

:bandanadee:, :bomberman: and :isaac: are too high.
:bandanadee: would absolutely have a chance of being there if he could actually set up into his kill moves, but he can't (like seriously, give him 1.0.3.2 up throw and fair back and he's high tier for sure). UThrow -> Uair is not a true kill confirm as it's murdered by DIing away from him and Dair lost a lot of it's kill confirm potential. Furthermore the extra gravity doesn't help that most of his kill moves are vertical, so unless you get lucky with a juggle/edgeguard or ledgetrap read, you're gonna have a hard time killing with him. Furthermore, they gimped his forward air again back to how it was in .2 so it doesn't really link together anymore.

:bomberman: has a good advantage state, but I feel like despite his ability to force 50/50s on stage with his Bombs, he still has an incredibly bad disadvantage and will die if he gets lightly tapped offstage, not to mention that the gravity increase makes him combo fodder and you'll find that Bomberman's mediocre neutral isn't really enough to help him offset his bad disadvantage (unlike :chibirobo: - who not only has a better neutral, but a much better advantage and disadvantage).

I've explained :isaac: pretty thoroughly throughout Play's posts, but his only real good trait is an average-ish advantage state, which doesn't offset his mediocre neutral and loss to camping and awful disadvantage state, even with the grab meta helping him somewhat.

and :bowser: , :link:, :sandbag:, and :kirby: are too low.

The grab meta REALLY helps :bowser:, who now has options to cover DI mixups off his Up Throw at the normal kill confirm percentages, as well as him having true zero-to-death combos on almost everyone in the cast except for :jigglypuff:. Furthermore, trades generally help Bowser as his attacks are damaging enough to generally net him the trade win. His neutral isn't particularly bad as he's one of the better characters at playing an in-shield BnP game, and his grab range is still very good. Also, Flying Slam is an underexplored option and one that can be even potentially used to win air-to-air situations.

:link: barely got changed and powercreep hasn't negatively impacted him at all. Not really much else to say.

:sandbag: now actually has legitimate movement and it makes him much more viable than the worst in the game imho.

:kirby: benefitted hugely from the grab meta as he now has so much off his throws including a super solid kill confirm and a lot of good combo options. Plus, he does pretty decently out of trades as well.


Right, I suppose it's time for the long-awaited arrival:
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My tier list.

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TSF.Strife wrote:
Thoughts on BandanaDeeMains list: show
BandanaDeeMain wrote:
New Tier List
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Okay Pichu sucks i get it. Also to Psycho: Stop just agreeing with what Strife says, come up with your own opinion, and take critism, but don't just say "I agree" 5 billion times. Besides, post a tier list. I want to see your thoughts.


I agree with this sentiment. Agreeing with me is all well and good, but constantly feeding the whole "I agree with you but have nothing to add of my own thoughts" somewhat makes you look like a sheep.

Now, as for your current tier list, it's actually pretty solid. I only really have a couple of major criticisms.

:bandanadee:, :bomberman: and :isaac: are too high.
:bandanadee: would absolutely have a chance of being there if he could actually set up into his kill moves, but he can't (like seriously, give him 1.0.3.2 up throw and fair back and he's high tier for sure). UThrow -> Uair is not a true kill confirm as it's murdered by DIing away from him and Dair lost a lot of it's kill confirm potential. Furthermore the extra gravity doesn't help that most of his kill moves are vertical, so unless you get lucky with a juggle/edgeguard or ledgetrap read, you're gonna have a hard time killing with him. Furthermore, they gimped his forward air again back to how it was in .2 so it doesn't really link together anymore.

:bomberman: has a good advantage state, but I feel like despite his ability to force 50/50s on stage with his Bombs, he still has an incredibly bad disadvantage and will die if he gets lightly tapped offstage, not to mention that the gravity increase makes him combo fodder and you'll find that Bomberman's mediocre neutral isn't really enough to help him offset his bad disadvantage (unlike :chibirobo: - who not only has a better neutral, but a much better advantage and disadvantage).

I've explained :isaac: pretty thoroughly throughout Play's posts, but his only real good trait is an average-ish advantage state, which doesn't offset his mediocre neutral and loss to camping and awful disadvantage state, even with the grab meta helping him somewhat.

and :bowser: , :link:, :sandbag:, and :kirby: are too low.

The grab meta REALLY helps :bowser:, who now has options to cover DI mixups off his Up Throw at the normal kill confirm percentages, as well as him having true zero-to-death combos on almost everyone in the cast except for :jigglypuff:. Furthermore, trades generally help Bowser as his attacks are damaging enough to generally net him the trade win. His neutral isn't particularly bad as he's one of the better characters at playing an in-shield BnP game, and his grab range is still very good. Also, Flying Slam is an underexplored option and one that can be even potentially used to win air-to-air situations.

:link: barely got changed and powercreep hasn't negatively impacted him at all. Not really much else to say.

:sandbag: now actually has legitimate movement and it makes him much more viable than the worst in the game imho.

:kirby: benefitted hugely from the grab meta as he now has so much off his throws including a super solid kill confirm and a lot of good combo options. Plus, he does pretty decently out of trades as well.


Right, I suppose it's time for the long-awaited arrival:
Image

My tier list.


While i'll respond to your counterclaims later. Here are my issues:

Swap Pac-Man and Luigi: It's less about Pac-Man being that bad and more about Luigi and Chibi Robo being better. Luigi has even more ridiculous frame data, even more early kill confirms than even Pac-Man's Back-Throw (Up-Air to Up-B 50-50, Fireballs to Dair guaranteed, etc.), Luigi's access to be able to abuse shieldgrab through going across half of FD from holding shield from the amount of traction luigi gains honestly benefits Luigi way too much than he should especially when his grab game is so good AND when he has one of the best punish games in the game. Chibi Robo's access to disjoints, much faster mobility, earlier kill confirms, and overall more reliability than Pac-man is probably enough to make him better than the Yellow Demon. Pac-Man's matchups are probably not good enough to be top 5, but anywhere in top 10 is fine.

Luffy is a bit too high: While the 1.1 mechanics GREATLY benefit Luffy overall. Luffy still has a lot of neutral issues given his mostly poor frame data and very risky huge hurtboxes everytime he does an attack. While the grab change really helps Luffy with not getting consistently cut short by a jab or whatever when he uses side-b, Luffy still has big enough exploitable flaws to prevent him from being THAT high.

Pikachu is WAY too low: Just because Pikachu has a little bit of Marthiritis sometimes and is a bit light isn't enough to place him that low especially given his advantage state. Pikachu's access to quick attack, moves with great frame data, fantastic mobility, and more allows for Pikachu to have one of the best neutrals in the game while possessing a fantastic punish game and the ever-so potent thunder which also grants Pikachu a fantastic offstage game and edge guarding while also having a great projectile which gains lots of distance while supplying enough hitstun for Pikachu to follow up. Also Pikachu's access to a short hurtbox REALLY benefits him in a combo based-meta like 1.1.0.1 more than it should and Pikachu just fundamentally works as a character.

There aren't TOO many issues regarding the tier list, I still disagree with Wario and Isaac's placement but i'll talk about them in another day.

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playridise wrote:
While i'll respond to your counterclaims later. Here are my issues:

Swap Pac-Man and Luigi: It's less about Pac-Man being that bad and more about Luigi and Chibi Robo being better. Luigi has even more ridiculous frame data, even more early kill confirms than even Pac-Man's Back-Throw (Up-Air to Up-B 50-50, Fireballs to Dair guaranteed, etc.), Luigi's access to be able to abuse shieldgrab through going across half of FD from holding shield from the amount of traction luigi gains honestly benefits Luigi way too much than he should especially when his grab game is so good AND when he has one of the best punish games in the game. Chibi Robo's access to disjoints, much faster mobility, earlier kill confirms, and overall more reliability than Pac-man is probably enough to make him better than the Yellow Demon. Pac-Man's matchups are probably not good enough to be top 5, but anywhere in top 10 is fine.

Luffy is a bit too high: While the 1.1 mechanics GREATLY benefit Luffy overall. Luffy still has a lot of neutral issues given his mostly poor frame data and very risky huge hurtboxes everytime he does an attack. While the grab change really helps Luffy with not getting consistently cut short by a jab or whatever when he uses side-b, Luffy still has big enough exploitable flaws to prevent him from being THAT high.

Pikachu is WAY too low: Just because Pikachu has a little bit of Marthiritis sometimes and is a bit light isn't enough to place him that low especially given his advantage state. Pikachu's access to quick attack, moves with great frame data, fantastic mobility, and more allows for Pikachu to have one of the best neutrals in the game while possessing a fantastic punish game and the ever-so potent thunder which also grants Pikachu a fantastic offstage game and edge guarding while also having a great projectile which gains lots of distance while supplying enough hitstun for Pikachu to follow up. Also Pikachu's access to a short hurtbox REALLY benefits him in a combo based-meta like 1.1.0.1 more than it should and Pikachu just fundamentally works as a character.


Quickly addressing them:
:luigi: has pretty poor overall range in a game where range is pretty key (this also applies to Pikachu), and he lacks the serious versatility that Pac has. Pac still has bell confirms, an oppressive ledgetrap game, a special move that can set traps offstage, edgeguard, kill opponents or start combos just off an item throw. I feel like you may be overestimating Luigi a bit as he still gets walled out by disjoint characters even with Fireballs being a thing.

I genuinely never understood why people think that :luffy:'s command grabs are actual neutral tools, because they aren't. Rocket, Snap and Pistol are combo extenders - Rocket allows for vertical kills/juggles, Pistol opens up all the grab followups on the ground and Snap allows you to get grounded resets. Furthermore, Luffy still has some non-risky moves and his aim in neutral is conditioning the opponent to shield or to keep playing the crossup game so that he gets tomahawk grabs or the option to whiff punish on shield. Also, his recovery is very solid as Balloon has armour when he inflates and he has a few options when recovering low, especially with the grab changes.

:pikachu: suffering from Marthritis isn't good when he's tiny and has poor range, especially with the grab changes. He's also big enough to be combo'd and he's light enough to die early from a combo. Considering how many disjoint characters there are ( :metaknight: , :chibirobo: , :ichigo: , :link: , :lloyd:, heck, even :zerosuitsamus:, :marth: and :sora: probably give Pikachu a bit of trouble) and characters without them who are more consistent ( :sheik: , :peach: , :falco: , :pacman: , :luigi:, :captainfalcon: , :mario: , :kirby: , :bowser:, even :wario:, :zelda: and :tails: etc.), it hurts Pikachu's viability in the long run because of it.

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