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Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:35 am
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Hey guys. New member here, but I've been a part of the SSF2 community since the original demo. I picked up BM as my main since v.7, and have kept him since. Unfortunately, I'm not very fond of the changes in Beta. Lots of his options were outright gutted. I had heard the new patch could launch in a few months on Bowler's video with tson (shoutouts from Smashboards, dude), so I thought maybe I could offer some suggestions here while the patch is still in the process of being worked on. Keep in mind this is just based on my experience in my local scene.

Uair: I'm not really sure why this was changed, but I don't think it works on BM very well. BM has poor jumping capabilities, so a multi hitting uair doesn't compliment his aerials from my experience. The damage is highly consistent, too. It can nail several of the hitboxes for moderate damage, or only one hitbox will hit for about 5%. I think you guys had it back in an earlier demo. A single hitbox for uair works really well on BM. I think it was in v.7 (been a while since I touched it), but one iteration did 12% damage, and could kill off the top around 140%. I think this would do really well on BM. His kill options were nerfed heavily in the transition to Beta. His main kill options (usmash, fsmash, bthrow, bair, and dash attack) are either worse, or have a significant risk/reward ratio for them. Expanding his kill options would greatly help him I think.

Fair: I think this move got a knockback increase since v.9? It feels like it, but I don't have the raw data to prove if my guess is correct. If it does, I think you guys got it just right in v.9. It was more fluid there, and the conversions were much better. And maybe a dev could answer this, but why was damage reduced from 12% to a consistent 9%? This is a thing I’ve noticed with BM’s aerials: fair, uair, and dair have been given consistently lower damage output.

Dair: This move has been nerfed since Death was introduced to it. It requires a specific sweetspot for a 6% move that occurs about three seconds later. The base knockback on it feels somewhat high (again, lack of raw data to prove my guessing here), but the knockback growth on a sourspotted dair is extremely low just like the damage. Could the move get a damage and knockback buff on the sourspots for consistency's sake? I can't get this to kill, outside of Death, beyond 120% on several characters.

Fthrow/uthrow: Why the damage nerf? Both moves did respectable damage before for throws. I'm not exactly sure why his other tools changed for the worse, but nerfing his damage output as well just exacerbates other problems.

Dthrow: I agree with the knockback buff here. 20% off a throw is pretty good, and anything else you could get off it is a significant amount of reward for such a low effort grab, but why the nerf in damage on the throw itself? In v.9, it did about 11% on the outset before the poison status effect slowly did additional damage. Why make it take longer for the actual damage to set in for Beta?

Bthrow: The throw already does low enough damage. Why nerf the knockback on one of his already few kill options? BM struggles to kill off the top outside of usmash, and his horizontal kill options already have a very significant risk factor to score his kills. I think you guys had it right in v.9.

Stop: You can SDI the attack, making it that much harder to land an attack on an already high risk move. Other moves with similar capabilities, like Growth, are much more consistent with their reward, and just generally much easier to land. Plus the hitbox size doesn't even match the size of the attack visual. Could the SDI multiplier be reduced some, or at least make the hitbox size match the visual size? It already got nerfed according to the changelog.

Haste: This move has always been quite polarizing, and just now has been drastically nerfed in Beta. I can't get it to kill unless I'm going deep for edgeguards, and I'm right next to the blast line. The area for its activation was nerfed, knockback was nerfed, and damage was nerfed constantly. The original intent for it was to kill, but it can't do that well anymore. Instead of sticking with it as a command grab, could it be a chargeable move that boosts BM's movement speed temporarily? I think much more success would be found this way.

Meteor: Um...I'm not sure what happened with Meteor, but I can't ever use it successfully in neutral. The move requires a significant charge time to kill, but it's lacking in so many ways. It can't be saved like other projectiles, so this limits it as an option to force mindgames, or the occasional kill. BM has poor jumping capabilities, so he has to burn his double jump to even get okay distance off a 4% projectile. It's not a good zoning tool. The kill power on it has been worsened, and has always been inconsistent since BM came out. Could the kill power remain consistent whether the projectile lands successfully or not? The much higher knockback from the explosion itself is incredibly niche. Anyone remotely decent won't just walk into it, and since BM has poor jumping capabilities, it isn't a reliable option to use in the air either. The Meteor, and explosion, even shrink in size if you land while charging it in the air. Plus the fully charged Meteor will retain its charge, so it will reach full charge very shortly after connecting with the ground. It loses significant height. I do think this move needs significant reworking. I don't ever use it, or any other BM main I know uses it. It's just a useless option all around.


Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:26 am
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Yeah I actually agree with a lot of this especially what you said about Meteor

Just a reminder that from 9b to Beta BM's jump height was nerfed so doing everything is worse now and he gets platform camped for free.

I like the idea of just doing 20% from a dthrow instead of attempting a combo but when its the optimal throw to go for in almost every situation because bthrow cant do anything, fthrow only kills at like 160% at the ledge, and your best followup from uthrow is a di read with an inconsistent uair, then we have some problems

I would be completely fine with haste as it is now if it had any killpower, its extremely upsetting that I can haste a Link at 200% and it won't kill.

If we got 9b fair and uair back it would honestly help so much, the reason uair was changed for beta is because in 9b it was a very strong juggle move that had disjoint and a lingering hitbox, but the way they went about fixing it was so so bad to the point where one of the best ways to use the new uair is to f*** jab lock.

IIRC Fair used to have a slightly bigger hitbox, a better angle, less endlag as well as less landing lag so you can not only use it in neutral, follow up if it hits, or use the pseudo wavedash on a landing fair to microspace. But now it just serves as a very underwhelming move that doesnt do much of anything.

My main way of changing Stop would be to, give it a hitbox that matched the animation, remove the sdi multiplier completely and increase it's endlag by a little bit, this way you can get away with having a move that can beat shield, have good reward when it hits, but can also be reacted to with airdodge or spotdodge, and punished. Sounds fair?

Also for the love of god, bring back 9b Usmash, it was super unique and actually a worthwhile option to go for instead of the slower, weaker option we have now.

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Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:38 am
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Corvid Crow wrote:
Yeah I actually agree with a lot of this especially what you said about Meteor

Just a reminder that from 9b to Beta BM's jump height was nerfed so doing everything is worse now and he gets platform camped for free.

I like the idea of just doing 20% from a dthrow instead of attempting a combo but when its the optimal throw to go for in almost every situation because bthrow cant do anything, fthrow only kills at like 160% at the ledge, and your best followup from uthrow is a di read with an inconsistent uair, then we have some problems

I would be completely fine with haste as it is now if it had any killpower, its extremely upsetting that I can haste a Link at 200% and it won't kill.

If we got 9b fair and uair back it would honestly help so much, the reason uair was changed for beta is because in 9b it was a very strong juggle move that had disjoint and a lingering hitbox, but the way they went about fixing it was so so bad to the point where one of the best ways to use the new uair is to f*** jab lock.

IIRC Fair used to have a slightly bigger hitbox, a better angle, less endlag as well as less landing lag so you can not only use it in neutral, follow up if it hits, or use the pseudo wavedash on a landing fair to microspace. But now it just serves as a very underwhelming move that doesnt do much of anything.

My main way of changing Stop would be to, give it a hitbox that matched the animation, remove the sdi multiplier completely and increase it's endlag by a little bit, this way you can get away with having a move that can beat shield, have good reward when it hits, but can also be reacted to with airdodge or spotdodge, and punished. Sounds fair?

Also for the love of god, bring back 9b Usmash, it was super unique and actually a worthwhile option to go for instead of the slower, weaker option we have now.


Oh wow. I did not know that his jump height was nerfed. I just wonder how a lot of this got approved? It seems extreme.

Did fair get a knockback scaling increase? Because it really seems like it did. A lot of the time it's just hard to follow up out of it because of BM's poor jump height, and how much the opponent can DI up and away with the knockback on it. I love your idea for Stop, too. Removing the SDI multiplier would help a lot. The move is extremely high risk, but rather low reward right now.

You mentioned usmash was nerfed in speed? I know it lost a hitbox. What else happened to it?


Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:42 am
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Fair knockback scaling's completely different now, its unsafe on hit at early percents and stuff like double fair and fair > uair are super tight to hit now

Usmash was given more startup, more endlag, lost the second hitbox, and it lost some of its killpower as well. Full charge actually gained a lot of power but its really not worth it.

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Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:30 am
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Corvid Crow wrote:
Fair knockback scaling's completely different now, its unsafe on hit at early percents and stuff like double fair and fair > uair are super tight to hit now

Usmash was given more startup, more endlag, lost the second hitbox, and it lost some of its killpower as well. Full charge actually gained a lot of power but its really not worth it.

Wow. This is...crazy. So he lost juggle options, his damage output was nerfed a lot, his main combo aerial was nerfed alongside his jump height, mobility was nerfed with the jump height reduction, his kill options were nerfed significantly, and he lost more kill options. Who thought this was good idea?


Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:25 pm
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So I downloaded v.9b just to see what exactly changed, and man, you were right.

-It's so much easier to land fair into fair, fair into uair, or fair into Haste.
-Nair does so much less damage now. If I want to convert from nair into a grounded attack, the damage is 6% less in Beta.
-Uair actually kills at a reasonable percentage, and juggles so much better. The single hitbox on it is so much better for juggling.
-Bthrow is really good at killing.
-Fthrow does 11% compared to 7% now. Dthrow does 11% before the throw launches them. Uthrow does 1% more damage, but it is a better option to set up a juggle with because uair is so much better.
-Meteor covers more angles, and is plausible to use in neutral.
-Haste actually kills, and does 4% more damage.
-His movement overall is just more fluid. Jump height is just much better, and his conversions are more fluid.
-Usmash is better as a juggle option early on. The two hitboxes total 20%, plus I'm noticing it kills about 10% earlier.

The only buff in Beta is Thundaga doing 28% versus 20%. :blackmage:


Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:28 pm
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The one thing that triggered me the hardest was the Bthrow nerf.

like why tho

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Fri May 18, 2018 10:29 am
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Nair for DAYS.

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Wed May 23, 2018 12:50 am
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