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Zalo's October tier-list 
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Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:46 pm
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Had this list for several months now, but I finally decided to share it.

Tier-1 [1 to 7] (Very-powerful with few weaknesses):
:lloyd: Lloyd, :marth: Marth, :metaknight: Meta-Knight, :naruto: Naruto, :pikachu: Pikachu, :sheik: Sheik, :zerosuitsamus: Zamus

Tier-1.5 [8 to 13] (Slightly Less Powerful than above due to some more exploitable weaknesses):
:bomberman: Bomberman, :donkeykong: Donkey Kong, :captainfalcon: Falcon, :fox: Fox, :goku: Goku, :tails: Tails

Tier-2 [14 to 19] (Good Balance of variable strengths and exploitable weaknesses in MU):
:blackmage: Black Mage, :link: Link, :ichigo: Ichigo, :mario: Mario, :yoshi: Yoshi, :zelda: Zelda

Tier-3 [20 to 29] (Below-Average due to uneven construction of playstyle):
:chibirobo: Chibi-Robo, :jigglypuff: Jigglypuff, :kirby: Kirby, :megaman: Mega Man, :ness: Ness, :peach: Peach, :samus: Samus, :sonic: Sonic, :sora: Sora , :wario: Wario

Notes:

- Tier division aren't in specific order. Characters alphabetized in each class.

- Charging-Glitches are considered banned on this list.

- I am creating this list with the consideration of highest level performed with that character, and the max level factually possible against other character their max possible potential.

Overview: There are obvious gaps between certain characters; however, within each tier-class where several characters have similar potential at high-level, there's multiple examples and arguments to be made for who's superior. Each have displayed their use in a high-level competitive environment, each have their own specialist main behind them to support their ability to perform at high-level, but the balance in the roster and stage selection makes the decision for a precise order cannot satisfactorily be determined.

Top-tier are over equipment with powerful tools and options but overall still end up having several even to losing match-up against characters that are two, or more tier-classes below them. Low-tiers are very under constructed in design and balance but aren't severely devastated by their issues.

I cannot stress enough that most low-tier aren't truly bad. Most of them have too many advantages to be that bad. Mario can death combo most characters off a single grab, as well has smashes that kill at 95%. Ness has great utility of tool in neutral. Jigglypuff can fence characters off-stage to gimp. Mega Man can zone hard enough that not even Top-tiers can break through his wall. And Sora can sneeze on you to deliver 50%, even if the combo started at 100%, making his KO potential negligible with experience behind him.

But, environmentally, the meta is not exactly suited for most of them, and Higher-tier just apply their strengths much easier in battle. Additionally, most Low-tiers' potential can be significantly effected by the stages, where most High-tiers only get a minor weakening by their worst stage (Unless it's a retarded stages like WarioWario or Mirror Chamber).

tl;dr - This game is like Smash 64 in balanced: every character has crazy-stupid s***, just on slight different levels of stupid.

P.S. - This doesn't mean there isn't a ton of things that need adjusting for future updates.

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Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:27 pm
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Im interested in the placing of Zelda on your tier list, mind to expand on that a little?

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Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:03 pm
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Assuming that the only banned tactic is stalling using the Edge-Cancelled Getup Attack invincibility (i.e., all charge-stacking glitches are legal), how do you think this tier list changes?

Can you elaborate on why Falcon is where he is?

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Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:41 pm
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If charging glitches are banned the I want BM to be tier 1 :blackmage:

On a more serious note, I'm somewhat curious about BMs placement, it seems a little bit... low compared to some of the other candidates in the same tier as him.

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Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:53 pm
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From what I've seen from BM, he's pretty good at edgeguarding, zoning and juggling. He has decent killing power too. He seems to have trouble with fast characters such as falcon. With all that in mind, he can keep up or even be on par with high tiers. I think he has to be higher but your placement is your choice man.

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:49 am
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Lloyd at #1.

I'm honestly confused by this placement. Top tier yes, but definitely not No. 1 imo.

Mind expanding on Lloyd's placement?

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:21 am
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Zalozis wrote:
Notes:

- Tier division aren't in specific order. Characters alphabetized in each class.

So like how many people read this

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:14 am
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Charging glitches are actually highly complex mechonics that only dabess playurs such as m'self and m'characters can do. I cannot stress enough the importance of such korean cs2 macros and because of this, you will be hearing from my lawyers. The only reason why I'm stuck in Anther's bronze elo hell is because too many NA scrobs want to fite with NA lag which holds me back from my WWE Grandslamma jamma title. Furthermore, I feel that Naruto and Marth has been highly overrated (that part was serious btw). I am guessing this is because your a japanophile weeb. You will be hearing from my lawyers.

I deserve Gold, gg.

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Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:21 pm
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Tier 1 is good, but idk about the rest like Zelda be low tier.

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Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:33 pm
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@Jadeneck: Everyone in Tier-1 have wins over her overall, half the characters in Tier-1.5 give her a hard time, and she goes close to even with everyone in Tier-2. But she does slaughter everyone underneath her.

As much as Zelda has going for her, most people really exaggerate the necessary tactics to defeat her. In neutral, you honestly just stay outside her physical range. This is both stay away at mid-range at neutral or playing a runaway game from far-range. From there, she has no variable approach option or ability to negate the distance do to a slow approach and singular design projectile. Mostly any character faster than her controls the flow of neutral. Nearly everyone above her, has methods to nullify her best options, restricting her to moderate level options.

Basically, she's has some unsafe options in neutral and struggles to punish her opponent's options in neutral. For her to make up this, she has to rely on more risky tactics. Some of them are: Short-Hop approach Nayru's Love - a difficult 50/50 guess that opponent can react to shield or move just outside it's range to punish ending lag. Shield-grabs - which can be crossed-up/frame-trapped. Farore's Wind Mix-up - impractical, but may catch opponent off-guard. Din's Ground Impact - perhaps more unexpected as if she short-hops and land the explosion, though this is impractical as well. She'll be relatively safe from when opponent moving in offensively. But a move with long enough range thrown out can end up hitting her and destroying the Din's at the same time.

I guess I could sum it up as, "Zelda has to play fair into order to beat experienced top-tier players."
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@TheCodeSamurai: Falcon very great neutral and still has really strong punish game that's tough to ignore, with guaranteed high damaging setups. Still a good recovery that some characters below him have edgeguarding. Still has Fthrow > Dair on virtually everyone for gimps too; that throw just setups for Nipple Spike in most scenarios and, in others, Double Dair; and Falcon can still recovery. And percentages to land it a majority of the time and over a short-hop or full-jump for follow DI is a decently wide. I also think his ability to weave though tough zoning is underestimated a bit (most specifically the Naruto match-up. A single opening is enough for when to get in for a full punish. I like to say more no-impact landings for platform movement, combined with immediate fast-falls of platforms. It's not exactly wavelanding on platform movement speed, but a good substitution improve his movement on platform stages. Overall, I think there's a more to optimizing Falcon that would get him above mid-tier and handling the other characters in his shared tier.

As Charge-glitch, Naruto gets a buff with a high-damaging Rasengan that he can store and immediately Rasenshuriken after use. It less risky on whiff and creates a a frame-trap if shielded. Sheik gets double needles. I guess the main significant spot to change would be Samus whole could be touching on more Tier-1.5. Anywhere between her own death or her opponents, she can charge and comeback potential that she gains is simple to Naruto with Rasenshuriken.
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@Drarky: I think a lot of people over emphasize his abilities because of how odd they are. Black Mage has tons of tricks and traps that are but all can be dealt with in some matter. Once you consistently learn to minimize his use with them, I find his ability to play neutral is quite normalized. Through he has some interest make options like retreating jumps to Fair-landing to weave out-then-in of ranges, which is nice to improve his ground movement spacing. It's also very hard to judge because you are the best and only high-level Black Mage (and the only one online). But I feel like dealing with Black Mage is more using good fundamentals and knowing the functionality of his tricks.
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@Kyoz: But Zelda isn't in Low-tier. She's has a lot of material that makes a very strong character, but most characters above her have a tactic that puts the MU out of her favor.

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Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:36 pm
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Zalozis wrote:
@Jadeneck: Everyone in Tier-1 have wins over her overall, half the characters in Tier-1.5 give her a hard time, and she goes close to even with everyone in Tier-2. But she does slaughter everyone underneath her.

As much as Zelda has going for her, most people really exaggerate the necessary tactics to defeat her. In neutral, you honestly just stay outside her physical range. This is both stay away at mid-range at neutral or playing a runaway game from far-range. From there, she has no variable approach option or ability to negate the distance do to a slow approach and singular design projectile. Mostly any character faster than her controls the flow of neutral. Nearly everyone above her, has methods to nullify her best options, restricting her to moderate level options.

Basically, she's has some unsafe options in neutral and struggles to punish her opponent's options in neutral. For her to make up this, she has to rely on more risky tactics. Some of them are: Short-Hop approach Nayru's Love - a difficult 50/50 guess that opponent can react to shield or move just outside it's range to punish ending lag. Shield-grabs - which can be crossed-up/frame-trapped. Farore's Wind Mix-up - impractical, but may catch opponent off-guard. Din's Ground Impact - perhaps more unexpected as if she short-hops and land the explosion, though this is impractical as well. She'll be relatively safe from when opponent moving in offensively. But a move with long enough range thrown out can end up hitting her and destroying the Din's at the same time.

I guess I could sum it up as, "Zelda has to play fair into order to beat experienced top-tier players."
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@TheCodeSamurai: Falcon very great neutral and still has really strong punish game that's tough to ignore, with guaranteed high damaging setups. Still a good recovery that some characters below him have edgeguarding. Still has Fthrow > Dair on virtually everyone for gimps too; that throw just setups for Nipple Spike in most scenarios and, in others, Double Dair; and Falcon can still recovery. And percentages to land it a majority of the time and over a short-hop or full-jump for follow DI is a decently wide. I also think his ability to weave though tough zoning is underestimated a bit (most specifically the Naruto match-up. A single opening is enough for when to get in for a full punish. I like to say more no-impact landings for platform movement, combined with immediate fast-falls of platforms. It's not exactly wavelanding on platform movement speed, but a good substitution improve his movement on platform stages. Overall, I think there's a more to optimizing Falcon that would get him above mid-tier and handling the other characters in his shared tier.

As Charge-glitch, Naruto gets a buff with a high-damaging Rasengan that he can store and immediately Rasenshuriken after use. It less risky on whiff and creates a a frame-trap if shielded. Sheik gets double needles. I guess the main significant spot to change would be Samus whole could be touching on more Tier-1.5. Anywhere between her own death or her opponents, she can charge and comeback potential that she gains is simple to Naruto with Rasenshuriken.
___________________

@Drarky: I think a lot of people over emphasize his abilities because of how odd they are. Black Mage has tons of tricks and traps that are but all can be dealt with in some matter. Once you consistently learn to minimize his use with them, I find his ability to play neutral is quite normalized. Through he has some interest make options like retreating jumps to Fair-landing to weave out-then-in of ranges, which is nice to improve his ground movement spacing. It's also very hard to judge because you are the best and only high-level Black Mage (and the only one online). But I feel like dealing with Black Mage is more using good fundamentals and knowing the functionality of his tricks.
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@Kyoz: But Zelda isn't in Low-tier. She's has a lot of material that makes a very strong character, but most characters above her have a tactic that puts the MU out of her favor.



Bro, this was beautiful, I enjoyed reading, all characters are well placed, a little iffy on Lloyd and Zelda, but other than that 10/10.

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Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:15 pm
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