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Issues with the Japanese Tier List 
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Hello, I wanted to bring forth some concerns I had with the Japanese Tier List on the Mcleodgaming Wiki (Link: http://mcleodgaming.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list / talking to Niayre about this: http://mcleodgaming.wikia.com/wiki/Mess ... eEnding999) My end-goal is to eradicate the tier list on the page, but I wanted to promote some discussion on this topic and try to correct any misinformation I had.

1. What is the Japanese Scene?

What exactly is the Japanese scene that the paragraph below the tier list mentions? I assumed that this meant that there was some sort of offline, local scene, but I had no luck in finding any information that proved this. Who are these people, and why should I take their opinion seriously? The link makes no mention of any of the Japanese players that helped developed the tier list and the "source" of the tier list is a Google Drive link (Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0). Seriously?! A Google Drive with Japanese letters and names is not proof of the existence of a Japanese scene. To be fair, I imagine that the tier list was not added based on the Google Drive alone, but this information should be provided alongside the drive link in order to prove the scene's existence

2. Validity of the Tier List

SSF2 is a global game and is played by many different players located in lots of countries. I have met with people from Europe, Africa, and even places closer to Japan such as Thailand and Australia. Never have I once seen a player from Japan. I am aware that I have not been part of any sort of chatroom for a long time, so there are likely new people I have not seen. There is one individual I have found by searching "japanese ssf2" and it is this person: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrBx-B ... rDL8njpo0Q . This person has five videos showcasing game play with another player named Kiru. I searched their names for additional information and I did not find anything valuable. Furthermore, I do not see these videos as proof of a Japanese scene. I could easily create a Youtube account and upload similar footage. I find it very likely that someone could have easily fabricated a whole scene. There is not enough proof that leads me to believe that there is some sort of legitimate scene for SSF2 JPN. Feel free to prove me wrong, but I'm going to need more proof than someone with a Japanese name who lags.

3. Why does Japan even have a tier list?

The first two points of this post focus on whether or whether not the scene is real and should be taken seriously. Regardless of the answer to these two points, I feel that the list should be removed all together. My first problem is "...why Japan?". Out of all the areas that could have their own tier list, Japan, was chosen. Not America which where most of the community resides; not Latin America where they host regional tournaments; and not even Canada which has produced SSF2 talent such as yours truly :donkeykong: . Japan was chosen for one obvious reason: Weebism. There is no doubt in my mind that Japan was given a special exception due to this community's fetishization of anime and obsessiveness over Japanese Smash4 players.

There is a huge divide in the level of work put into the BR tier list compared to the Japanese tier list. The BR tier list takes into account the opinions of the game's top players and was discussed over a three month period. The Japanese tier list was made by a group of unnamed randoms who may or may not be alt accounts. I have my own problems with the BR tier list and its own validity, but the contrast between these two is huge; the BR may not be perfect, but it's way better than the Japanese tier list.

That being said, if the Japanese tier list remains, then I so no reason to not include any country that wants to be part of it. Canada, Latin America, Saudi Arabia, why not California? It has a larger population than Canada anyways. I don't want any of these countries to have tier lists, but I'm highlighting how ridiculous it is to give preferential treatment to one nation that has done nothing to earn it. Its existence on the tier list page is a joke and promotes misinformation to people who think that there is actually a dedicated SSF2 JPN scene.

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Sat May 20, 2017 12:55 am
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Yeah it should be removed.

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Sat May 20, 2017 9:04 am
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Pretty much :chibirobo:

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Sat May 20, 2017 1:44 pm
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i think they are fake

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Sat May 20, 2017 5:20 pm
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I think the reason that their tier list was accepted was because of how different their meta has evolved compared to our own. Majority of the online ssf2 community is centralized in North America, but there is representation across the globe. Notably, Japan is absent from the list of regions that have known SSF2 players. Supposedly their meta has grown in complete isolation from the rest of the community, so their meta is revolutionary; it represents a "what-if" scenario. That is what makes it so interesting. Despite having no real in-game differences from the NTSC version, Europe's different rulesets/metagame/etc led them to create their own tier list for Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Their community is large enough and active enough to make this a reliable tier list for their metagame at the time. They felt it necessary because of how contained their scene was. Similarly, Japan had their own Brawl tier list.

For SSF2, it doesn't make sense for Canada, UK, UAE, France, Australia, Chile, etc etc to have their own tier lists because they generally fall under the same communal umbrella that the US does (where most of the scene is concentrated). Since they all work together towards the same meta and use the same rulesets/etc, it doesn't really make sense for each region to make their own tier list instead of a larger tier list. If Japan's meta is as self-contained as we have been lead to believe, then they would not be contributing to the same meta as we all have. So, it makes sense for a region like this to have their own tier list. If any other continent, country, state/province, or even just a city was as self-contained, then they would likely generate their own tier list. and it would make for a very interesting read to see how their scene has developed. But just to caveat that, this would not mean a handful of players in the same region only playing each other. I specifically mean a growing, competing community of players that are constantly interacting with each other. Think like the hundreds of players that we interact with in this community, but centralized into a much smaller space (although for a smaller locale, a self-contained community of a few dozen or so would probably be the minimum).

I mean, sure if California had its own very active scene that more or less stayed within its region then it might make sense for it to have its own tier list. But that's one thing, it's a completely different thing to create a tier list that is only voted on with players from California when those players already belong to a larger collective.



This is just something I wanted to say regarding the hypothetical and intentionally ridiculous idea of regions having their own tier lists. The point of the OP isn't that Japan is getting preferential treatment and every region should get their own tier list to be fair. The bigger issue is, of course ...


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I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT THE JAPANESE SCENE EXISTS, LET ALONE TO THE STANDARD I HAVE DESCRIBED ABOVE. THUS, THEIR TIER LIST SHOULD AT MOST BE GIVEN ITS OWN PAGE AND LINKED TO ON THE OFFICIAL TIER LIST PAGE. I'M ALL FOR GIVING THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, BUT CONSIDERING THAT WE'VE GONE THIS LONG WITHOUT HEARING ANY MORE ABOUT THEIR SCENE, THE "STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS" ON DISCOVERING THEIR SCENE HAS LONG RUN OUT, IN MY OPINION, AND SHOULD BE REMOVED PENDING FURTHER COMMUNICATION.

The only gameplay I've seen could be any two players playing each other in poor connection, I'm sure. Not only that, but what conversation has happened between the two communities has been very restricted and not fully disclosed (no chat logs or extra people that can corroborate such communication), not to mention that afaik they have made no attempts to contact us (and it has only been people from our community to do so). Furthermore, over the last couple of years our community has been plagued by mistrust and divisive figures. I wouldn't count it out of the realm of possibility that one (or several) of those people has fabricated the whole thing for some reason.

Of course, if one was to assume their community is fake, it raises 2 questions: 1) who would go to such lengths to create a false community?; 2) what does someone think they could accomplish by doing such a thing?

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Sat May 20, 2017 9:58 pm
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[Drarky / Bowler]

I agree

[obi_nation00]

Can you be more specific? Are we talking about the alleged Japanese players, and if so, why do you feel this way?

[Starkiller]


The situation changes when new scenes can provide reasons on why their opinions should be taken seriously. It's less of a numbers issue, and more of a "what value is added by your opinions". I do not see why the Japanese community's opinion should be important. You bring up a great point in regards to the Brawl community and how it was divided into NA, Europe, and Japan, but I feel that SSF2 and Brawl are too different to compare. The online mode for Brawl was comparatively worse than SSF2's. The three regions separate sub-regions are all closely contacted and are not an overly-long distance away from each other. It makes more sense in this context to develop regional tier lists as players would be mostly reserved to playing with their own area's players and would develop separate opinions based on that. There is really no reason for Japan to be separate at all. I actually looked up the distance of certain areas and here is what I got:

Japan to California (NA west coast): 5,355 mi
New York (NA east coast) to England (Europe): 5,585 mi
England (Europe) to Japan: 5,845 mi

The connection isn't as bad as I thought it would be. I have played with people from England with no difficulties and I have even played with the now gone, Anonimlolek245 :sora: , further in Europe with no glaring issues. If these guys wanted to, they could totally integrate into the greater online community.

---

I do not think that the "Japanese" community should even have their own link on the tier list page. The scene has failed to provide any reason on why they should be taken seriously. What is shown on the tier list page is their list, a paragraph explaining it, and the "source" which is a Google Drive link which is not a source at all. These people have not provided any of the names of the creators of the lists, game play footage of the alleged scene is no where to be found, and they have not made any sort of effort to contract the larger online community. Its existence is harmful and promotes misinformation to viewers of the page. I have heard people cite and talk about the tier list as if it were real, when its legitimacy is dubious. If the community can provide some indisputable proof about the scene's existence, that opens a new conversation. As for now, the tier list and any mentions of it should be removed from the wiki.

If there is good proof of the scene's existence and a level of skill that makes the scene's opinion valuable, then the situation changes.

---

I would guess that the situation was fabricated as someone wanted to see how gullible the community would be and how far they could take the situation. Maybe the Japanese tier list is their own opinion and they wanted everyone to see it. Perhaps it was just "for the lulz". It can be fun to see how far you can take a lie when they are no consequences to your actions (due to the online nature of the game).

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Sun May 21, 2017 2:34 am
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AxeEnding999 wrote:
There is really no reason for Japan to be separate at all

If we were to assume that their scene exists, the point is that their scene WAS self-contained and separate, the "why was their scene self-contained when we have online mode?" doesn't matter when talking about whether or not their tier list is valid. If anything, the best reason for such a scene to stay within Japan's borders is the language barrier, assuming they all speak only Japanese. But my discussion about this was about a generic region that kept to itself, and it assumes that the region in question can sufficiently show their existence.


But again, since their validity has not been verified in the months its been since posting, I agree that they shouldn't have a link either. It should be removed.


If I was to take a guess as to why, I think it was indeed someone wanting to inflate their own importance by becoming the guy that communicates with the Japanese scene and the rest. From there, the guy could make the Japanese scene say whatever he wants (in this case, we saw a tier list). Such ideas really come from the guy, but by making it seem like it came from a larger collective can give it an air of legitimacy that one person cannot give. Worst case, it could even be a part of a larger strategy to destabilize the entire ssf2 community (in that we were meant to not be fooled), but I don't think there is a single person in the community Machiavellian enough to come up with such a plan and act on it.

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Sun May 21, 2017 2:25 pm
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Starkiller wrote:
AxeEnding999 wrote:
There is really no reason for Japan to be separate at all

If anything, the best reason for such a scene to stay within Japan's borders is the language barrier, assuming they all speak only Japanese.
but I don't think there is a single person in the community Machiavellian enough to come up with such a plan and act on it.


just putting this out there
1; latino scene
2; spanish speaking players, most oft found in Anthers

And 1 word; motne

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Sun May 21, 2017 11:04 pm
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Quote:
And 1 word


nah

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Mon May 22, 2017 2:13 am
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I like Japan.
It's a pretty country.

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Mon May 22, 2017 2:55 am
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If you want more Japanese play, I suggest searching with スーパースマッシュフラッシュ2 or some variation of it.

Currently, the only Japanese smash player I know of personally is Vendetta, who is one of their top players. The last time I checked, which was before the end of 2016, they had run about 5-6 tournaments. Interestingly, the player list was more or less consistent at each event, so their scene is very much an isolated tight-knit group of players who might play locally.

I can't find it right now, because mobile YouTube sucks, but there was at least one account that would post tournament sets. Their play wasn't too far off from what you would see over here, but there was a LOT of Pikachu and ZSS.

EDIT: I found the tournament drive. It hasn't been updated since late November, but it's there.

EDIT2: Some guy put some tournament sets up back in November.

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Wed May 24, 2017 6:22 pm
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The tournament sets, the challonges, and that doc are all roughly from the same time period, it could just be one or a few people doing a bunch of work and then posting it all (at worst they worked twice because there are only two tournaments with anything that substantiates their existence). If they had as many tournaments as they did, where have the recent tournaments been? And why did they have 2 different challonge accounts for tournaments instead of just using one?

Edit: there are japanese players that certainly play the game, but this scene still seems kinda questionable.

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Wed May 24, 2017 8:21 pm
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I believe the Japanese players don't typically use Youtube or Challonge. There's probably some Japanese equivalent.

Either that, or the scene just kinda died down after that initial flash. Who really knows.

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Wed May 24, 2017 9:13 pm
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Japanese people not taking to a Smash game? Unheard of :O

memes and racist comments aside
The Flash Jap. youtuber looks primarily to only be using a meta that we as a community is familiar with; high tiers and jank.

While back when there was a Crew battle (I think USA vs Jap) almost everyone said that the japanese players sucked a**. Which doesn't make any sense to me; especially when I look at Flash's videos. Lots of good things going on in his videos.

So in short/ either the crew battle was falsified, or Flash's videos are corrupt. In either of these two cases the Jap Tier list should be taken down from the wiki due to lack of player input.

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Thu May 25, 2017 4:22 am
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Either that or, as I suggested before, the Japanese scene could be local, which means that they would suck in the crew battle because of the added delay and lag throwing them off. This is possible because the player base was consistent. Over here, you typically get a random mishmash of players at each event, some of whom never bother to show up again, yet the same people continued to appear at Japanese events, and no one was added or removed later.

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Fri May 26, 2017 3:57 pm
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