View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:43 am



Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
I just don't get it. Why is Luigi considered to be so bad? 
Author Message

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am
Posts: 24
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
The recent tier list has been out for quite a bit, and there's still one thing in particular that perplexes me.

One big thing in particular. The placement of Mario's second man, the lanky rocker, the Green Thunder, :luigi: . For those who haven't seen the list and are too lazy to look it up, Luigi is one of two people in the lowest tier, D Tier, sitting at 38 out of 39 fighters (only above Naruto).

The big question is, WHY?

Luigi's been my main ever since the very day Beta first dropped. I've played him much more than any other character in the game, and I'd say I have a great understanding of him. Now please, hear me out, I think Luigi is SO, SO much better than D tier, for many a reason.

MY ARGUMENTS:

First and foremost, with many of the changes made to his moveset in SSF2, Luigi is now a very deadly offensive machine. He maintains his speedy frame data and other positive traits from SSB4, which makes him rather hard to punish, which, when considering how many applications his moves have, is very troublesome indeed.

First and foremost, I belive Luigi's combo ability is amongst the best in the game, and almost comparable to what it is in SSB4, with some of the easiest and most rewarding combo moves in the game. Luigi has a great jab cancel, with the first two hits of his jab being able to lead into almost the entire rest of his moveset, including most of his combo starters and some of his KO moves. (It leads into all of his tilts, all his smash attacks, some of his aerials, and his grab, one of Luigi's most efficient tools). Up Tilt is easily one of Luigi's most versatile tools; not only does it deal a solid 9%, but it has low base knockback and low knockback scaling, and has a great angle for comboing, and it can not only chain into itself, but it can easily chain into various other moves on all the cast (but it's still more effective on middleweights and heavier), even past KO percents. In fact, on most characters, you can keep comboing into aerials past 150%! Few other moves I know can combo at percents that high. And on middleweights like Mario, Luigi can combo his up tilt into his up aerial at 150%, which is a KO confirm at those percents (and is a true combo!) Luigi also has a just as viable alternate to his up tilt; his down tilt, which deals 8% and can combo into almost anything with ease at base to low percents on even the lightest characters, and thanks to low knockback scaling, it's knockback barely changes, which means it can score guaranteed kill combos at 150% and beyond on pretty much anyone not named Jigglypuff (at 150% on lightweights, it can true combo into both forward air's sweetspot and up air, which will both certiantly KO them (it also true combos into those moves on anyone heavier, but down tilt to up air will not KO middleweights and heavier unless they're on a platform) and while it's not so common, I've also been able to true combo into n-air, which will also KO most characters at those percents. Down tilt is pretty ridiculous, as down tilt to up air continues to be a true combo on lightweights at 180% damage at the least. He'd be fine with just those two combo moves, but he has more (his n air, his u air, throws, etc, which will all be elaborated on when it's time).

Even outside of those two moves, Luigi's moves still posses considerable utility; all of his smashes, even with their nerfs, remain very effective at KOing while still possessing utility; Uncharged forward smash can casually KO under 75% near the ledge, Uncharged up smash is great at comboing and kills at 114%, and uncharged down smash similarly kills at 108% and is good at comboing into aerials. His forward tilt deals 12% (very high for a move of it's type) and can lead into edgeguards while being able to KO itself near the edge at very high damage. His fireballs are great offensive tools, being just slow enough to remain a constant threat; Luigi can also have three onscreen at once and a single fireball covers more than half the length of Final Destination.

Aside from his smashes, all of his aerials can KO at very high percents while easily comboed into, and they themselves can function as efficient combo tools at varying percents. Special mention goes to up air, one of the most underrated aerials in the game IMO; basically, it's Mario's up aerial from SSB4 with comparable utility, being able to do much of the same things (it's vertical angle, rather consistent knockback, and it's fast speed allow it to combo into itself and many other moves, it can easily break combos while setting up into them itself, and can be thrown out as a surprise KO move near the top blast line at around 150%; It perfectly sums up Luigi; needs time getting used to, but a great all-purpose once mastered). Aside from his up air, n-air is basically a giant middle finger to opposing combos and can combo itself, forward air is great at approaching, especially with the help of fireballs, and can swiftly KO even with the sourspot, back air I belive KOs at 140% stale, and down air has very high knockback even at low percents, making it a great choice for low percent gimps.

And last but certianly not least, his grab game, one of his most crucial aspects, hasn't been nerfed at all to my knowledge.Which is great, because his down throw is even better for combos at low percents than in SSB4, while KOing at high percents for some reason. (In fact, ALL of his throws can reliably KO for some reason. I mean, say what? So basically, if you get grabbed by Luigi at kill percents, you're basically boned). His forward throw comes in second, having a low percent chaingrab and actually dealing more knockback than his back throw at kill percents for some reason. Back throw is basically a more damaging equivalent to f-throw at high percents. While up throw has less utility outside of killing, you can chase opponents with Luigi Cyclone, but this is far from guaranteed.

While Luigi certainly does have his fair share of flaws, I feel he can make up for them quite well with his great strengths, having one of the most versatile and most consistent combo games, regardless of the character's weight, gravity and falling speed, and being at least adept at most other areas. He can keep the pressure on the opponent, he has a great neutral game thanks to his combo ability and lightning fast frame data, and can KO easily given the opportunity, and has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT). There are better choices, but he is nowhere NEAR the second worst character in the game, and is also not even close to being a bottom fifteen. At the very least, he should be in the mid tier (not sure quite where in the mid tier, but that's definitely where he should be) given his great potential and powerful offense, and if more people show off what he can really do, then he could even rise up to the high tier. So, with all that in mind, can someone explain just why he's so low?

(Also, I'm a new user, and I see I forgot to introduce myself. Hey everybody! I'm very glad to be here on the forums!)


Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:48 pm
Profile
SSF2 Developer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:47 pm
Posts: 2316
Location: BC
Country: Canada (ca)
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: Complacency breeds weakness. My opponents won't stop getting stronger, neither will I.
Reply with quote
LMAO I wasn't even halfway through the first sentence before I realized what this is XD

_________________
Men that are trapped by the chains of "maybe" can never reach their dreams!
The weak are washed away by the tides of fate. The strong drink it up.
No matter the man, we all wear masks. Whether it be over our faces or over our hearts.

Youtube: NinjaLobsterStudios
Stream: twitch.tv/ninjalobster

Click to expand thumbnail


Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:26 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am
Posts: 24
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
Starkiller wrote:
LMAO I wasn't even halfway through the first sentence before I realized what this is XD


Forgive me for being a dumbass, but I honestly have no idea wheter that was meant as an insult or not.


Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:03 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 2140
Location: The Mcleodgaming Forums.
Country: Bangladesh (bd)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Sonario
Currently Playing: TF2, CS:GO, SSF2 Beta.
Waifu: I'm an ace (for now)
Reply with quote
I honestly don't know why Luigi is D tier either. He's a great character with amazing combo potential.

For those who say his floatiness makes him easy to juggle, it's more than possible to avoid juggles by saving your double jump, using the Luigi Cyclone, Green Missile-ing, airdodging and finally the ever reliable nair.

Speaking of nair, it starts your combos and stops enemy combos. The dair is a great finisher whether it's meteored or not. Dtilt sends opponents into a great position, Fair has a good angle, Ftilt is quick, Utilt comboes, Fsmash is a powerful killmove, Fireballs can keep opponents at bay and pretty much all of Luigi's moveset is great.

The only thing that I find to be d-tier worthy is his nerfed dash attack that can't land more than 1 hit anymore.

_________________
The "portrait" in my avatar is because I've beaten I Wanna Be The Guy and so I am a The Guy. My save proves it.


Flash Card: show
Image

My thanks to Utah P. Teasdale (Harr) for the amazing Flash Card.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:53 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:09 am
Posts: 29
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
Reply with quote
Sonario wrote:
The only thing that I find to be d-tier worthy is his nerfed dash attack that can't land more than 1 hit anymore.


Couldn't a character have a dash attack that does nothing and still be good because of it's other moves? Is dash attack really that important?


Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:11 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 5:15 am
Posts: 2140
Location: The Mcleodgaming Forums.
Country: Bangladesh (bd)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Sonario
Currently Playing: TF2, CS:GO, SSF2 Beta.
Waifu: I'm an ace (for now)
Reply with quote
Mr MuffinEtG wrote:
Sonario wrote:
The only thing that I find to be d-tier worthy is his nerfed dash attack that can't land more than 1 hit anymore.


Couldn't a character have a dash attack that does nothing and still be good because of it's other moves? Is dash attack really that important?

No, I meant that the his dash attack is only aspect of Luigi that IS D-Tier, not the only aspect that MAKES him D-Tier.

_________________
The "portrait" in my avatar is because I've beaten I Wanna Be The Guy and so I am a The Guy. My save proves it.


Flash Card: show
Image

My thanks to Utah P. Teasdale (Harr) for the amazing Flash Card.


Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:50 pm
Profile
SSF2 Developer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:47 pm
Posts: 2316
Location: BC
Country: Canada (ca)
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: Complacency breeds weakness. My opponents won't stop getting stronger, neither will I.
Reply with quote
Sniper Assassin Deluxe wrote:
Starkiller wrote:
LMAO I wasn't even halfway through the first sentence before I realized what this is XD


Forgive me for being a dumbass, but I honestly have no idea wheter that was meant as an insult or not.

Nope, no insult. I love this meme

_________________
Men that are trapped by the chains of "maybe" can never reach their dreams!
The weak are washed away by the tides of fate. The strong drink it up.
No matter the man, we all wear masks. Whether it be over our faces or over our hearts.

Youtube: NinjaLobsterStudios
Stream: twitch.tv/ninjalobster

Click to expand thumbnail


Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:46 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 10:21 pm
Posts: 205
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
Sniper Assassin Deluxe wrote:
The recent tier list has been out for quite a bit, and there's still one thing in particular that perplexes me.

One big thing in particular. The placement of Mario's second man, the lanky rocker, the Green Thunder, :luigi: . For those who haven't seen the list and are too lazy to look it up, Luigi is one of two people in the lowest tier, D Tier, sitting at 38 out of 39 fighters (only above Naruto).

The big question is, WHY?

Luigi's been my main ever since the very day Beta first dropped. I've played him much more than any other character in the game, and I'd say I have a great understanding of him. Now please, hear me out, I think Luigi is SO, SO much better than D tier, for many a reason.

MY ARGUMENTS:

First and foremost, with many of the changes made to his moveset in SSF2, Luigi is now a very deadly offensive machine. He maintains his speedy frame data and other positive traits from SSB4, which makes him rather hard to punish, which, when considering how many applications his moves have, is very troublesome indeed.

First and foremost, I belive Luigi's combo ability is amongst the best in the game, and almost comparable to what it is in SSB4, with some of the easiest and most rewarding combo moves in the game. Luigi has a great jab cancel, with the first two hits of his jab being able to lead into almost the entire rest of his moveset, including most of his combo starters and some of his KO moves. (It leads into all of his tilts, all his smash attacks, some of his aerials, and his grab, one of Luigi's most efficient tools). Up Tilt is easily one of Luigi's most versatile tools; not only does it deal a solid 9%, but it has low base knockback and low knockback scaling, and has a great angle for comboing, and it can not only chain into itself, but it can easily chain into various other moves on all the cast (but it's still more effective on middleweights and heavier), even past KO percents. In fact, on most characters, you can keep comboing into aerials past 150%! Few other moves I know can combo at percents that high. And on middleweights like Mario, Luigi can combo his up tilt into his up aerial at 150%, which is a KO confirm at those percents (and is a true combo!) Luigi also has a just as viable alternate to his up tilt; his down tilt, which deals 8% and can combo into almost anything with ease at base to low percents on even the lightest characters, and thanks to low knockback scaling, it's knockback barely changes, which means it can score guaranteed kill combos at 150% and beyond on pretty much anyone not named Jigglypuff (at 150% on lightweights, it can true combo into both forward air's sweetspot and up air, which will both certiantly KO them (it also true combos into those moves on anyone heavier, but down tilt to up air will not KO middleweights and heavier unless they're on a platform) and while it's not so common, I've also been able to true combo into n-air, which will also KO most characters at those percents. Down tilt is pretty ridiculous, as down tilt to up air continues to be a true combo on lightweights at 180% damage at the least. He'd be fine with just those two combo moves, but he has more (his n air, his u air, throws, etc, which will all be elaborated on when it's time).

Even outside of those two moves, Luigi's moves still posses considerable utility; all of his smashes, even with their nerfs, remain very effective at KOing while still possessing utility; Uncharged forward smash can casually KO under 75% near the ledge, Uncharged up smash is great at comboing and kills at 114%, and uncharged down smash similarly kills at 108% and is good at comboing into aerials. His forward tilt deals 12% (very high for a move of it's type) and can lead into edgeguards while being able to KO itself near the edge at very high damage. His fireballs are great offensive tools, being just slow enough to remain a constant threat; Luigi can also have three onscreen at once and a single fireball covers more than half the length of Final Destination.

Aside from his smashes, all of his aerials can KO at very high percents while easily comboed into, and they themselves can function as efficient combo tools at varying percents. Special mention goes to up air, one of the most underrated aerials in the game IMO; basically, it's Mario's up aerial from SSB4 with comparable utility, being able to do much of the same things (it's vertical angle, rather consistent knockback, and it's fast speed allow it to combo into itself and many other moves, it can easily break combos while setting up into them itself, and can be thrown out as a surprise KO move near the top blast line at around 150%; It perfectly sums up Luigi; needs time getting used to, but a great all-purpose once mastered). Aside from his up air, n-air is basically a giant middle finger to opposing combos and can combo itself, forward air is great at approaching, especially with the help of fireballs, and can swiftly KO even with the sourspot, back air I belive KOs at 140% stale, and down air has very high knockback even at low percents, making it a great choice for low percent gimps.

And last but certianly not least, his grab game, one of his most crucial aspects, hasn't been nerfed at all to my knowledge.Which is great, because his down throw is even better for combos at low percents than in SSB4, while KOing at high percents for some reason. (In fact, ALL of his throws can reliably KO for some reason. I mean, say what? So basically, if you get grabbed by Luigi at kill percents, you're basically boned). His forward throw comes in second, having a low percent chaingrab and actually dealing more knockback than his back throw at kill percents for some reason. Back throw is basically a more damaging equivalent to f-throw at high percents. While up throw has less utility outside of killing, you can chase opponents with Luigi Cyclone, but this is far from guaranteed.

While Luigi certainly does have his fair share of flaws, I feel he can make up for them quite well with his great strengths, having one of the most versatile and most consistent combo games, regardless of the character's weight, gravity and falling speed, and being at least adept at most other areas. He can keep the pressure on the opponent, he has a great neutral game thanks to his combo ability and lightning fast frame data, and can KO easily given the opportunity, and has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT). There are better choices, but he is nowhere NEAR the second worst character in the game, and is also not even close to being a bottom fifteen. At the very least, he should be in the mid tier (not sure quite where in the mid tier, but that's definitely where he should be) given his great potential and powerful offense, and if more people show off what he can really do, then he could even rise up to the high tier. So, with all that in mind, can someone explain just why he's so low?

(Also, I'm a new user, and I see I forgot to introduce myself. Hey everybody! I'm very glad to be here on the forums!)


Alright lemme help you. Luigi is considered by most people to not only be D tier now, but he is considered by many now to be the worst character in the game. Luigi actually has no real combo followups that are reliable due to the new knockback system and DI/SDI hurts his combo game turning his combo game from great (from 1.0.2) to being very underwhelming/bad. Luigi lacks any real combos outside of Up-Tilt strings out of Down-Throw but he really can't do anything about that. F-Throw does not in fact chaingrab unless you are maybe fighting someone like Fox where he could potentially get chaingrabbed at low percents. Luigi's Up-Air is very bad mostly because of its terrible hitbox placement.

You know... This:

Attachment:
image-7.png
image-7.png [ 48.71 KiB | Viewed 2815 times ]


Kinda sad isn't it?

N-Air's biggest issue is its active frames. It got nerfed heavily for no reason whatsoever and lasts for only 1/3rd the amount it should have been which overall makes N-Air significantly easier to punish and harder to land with. The issue with Luigi's kill power is the fact that he has no reliable setups whatsoever into his kill moves whatsoever and he requires too much dumb luck to do anything really. Luigi can't kill until around 130%-170% which for a punish-based character is kind of sad, especially if he doesn't have any reliable damage racking options. Like the only way Luigi can get kills at low percent is if he jab locks the opponent into Up-Special, however he has like no tech chase opportunity anyways. LIke if Down-Throw was like G&W's Down-Throw, then Luigi would of definitely been Mid tier imo. Also i'd like you to list combos that works with DI/SDI in many scenarios btw, also Luigi will never have a combo game as good as Marth/DK. Also one more thing to note is that Luigi's frame data in SSF2 isn't that great, i'm not going to go into detail as Mcleodgaming would probably kick my a**, but i'll just leave it at that.

Luigi simply has too many problems as well. Luigi is SUPER slow in the ground and especially in the air as he has the worst air mobility in the game. His movement techniques are very inefficient as his skid animation loops which overall ruins a lot of movement tech potential. Because of this, Luigi has no way whatsoever to approach his opponents especially since his range is pretty godawful. One thing about range in SSF2 is that non-Disjointed characters always lose the trade to Disjointed characters and Port Priority exists meaning that Player 1 always wins the trade against Player 2 rendering Luigi as even more inconsistent and giving him significantly worse matchups against most of the cast. Luigi also gets screwed over by shieldstun as he cannot defensively approach with shield dashing or whatever you want to call it as he gets pushed too far making his approach options even worse and makes Luigi's approach options the worst in the game. This combination leaves Luigi having the worst neutral in the game as a whole, even worse is the fact that it leaves Luigi from being an offensive character to a defensive zoner where he depends on land cancellable fire balls (his best tool by far) given how bad his neutral is and how below average his punish game actually is where it isn't even worth it to go in outside of B-Air walling. Luigi has an overall predictable and easy to edge guard recovery, especially for disjointed characters to abuse. Luigi has the worst results in the game (The only character that doesn't have anyone actually ever playing him in tournament or had notable results. I mean at least with Naruto Prolific got top 8 using him solely). Luigi is also known for having a terrible matchup spread while he doesn't win against anyone except for maybe Sandbag if he has port priority, along with Luigi having near unwinnable matchups with most of the top tiers and some of the high tiers. Hence leaving Luigi as thought as unviable and one of the worst characters if not THE worst character in the game.

Did I answer your question?

_________________
Image


Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:11 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am
Posts: 24
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
Sorry for replying so late. Been busy with other stuff.

Yeah, your comment did help me a lot. I forgot DI was an actual thing. It really f*** up Luigi's 150% up tilt kill confirms, and some of his other combos too. In his defense, though, he can still chase DI on his down tilt with an f-air (with difficulty), so I'd argue that down tilt is still a reliable combo tool in his own right.

Oh, his frame data isn't that fast? Damn. I though it was, since he's clearly based off SSB4 Luigi (who's starting lag on his moves is overall the fastest in said game, excluding special moves). Guess I've been playing SSB4 a bit too much.

And up air's range is that bad? I'll admit, when I tested it in Training to verify, that the range is actually even worse than what the pic implies. You practically have to be touching the opponent. Shame, it could have been a really great move. Hopefully, the range is fixed in 1.1.0.

Yeah, I guess I understand why Luigi is so low. I still have a few minor nitpicks; his approach is subpar and definitely one of his biggest weaknesses, but it's not quite as dreadful as it's made out to be, and he has a few ways to alleviate his traction with varying effectiveness. He can still approach with short hopped aerials, and he can use his fireballs to help cover his approach (they're great at doing so on most opponents), or he can just walk. His walk is nothing impressive, but it's not very susceptible to a skid, and he can combine this with fireballs and short hopped fireballs to maintain stage control (this is my preferred approach). His approach still does hold him back greatly, especially against faster characters/ones with disjoints as you said, but unlike a few other characters in SSF2, at least his options exist.

Luigi's recovery is a mixed bag IMO. While it can be halted pretty easily (Green Missile is slow and if you want to jump into it, you can stop it, and Super Jump Punch has no horizontal distance), and he's overly reliant on his midair jump like Falco and Yoshi, it has great distance potential, and his Luigi Cyclone's what saves it; it can be thrown out at different times to confuse your opponent and mix up recovery, and even without any mashing, it still stalls you at the last hit, so if high enough above the stage, you can choose not to button mash the Cyclone to further keep your opponent guessing. Even then, his recovery is probably Luigi's biggest weakness, and it does break some matchups.

While he can struggle to close out the stock at high percents, he still does have his options; like I said, down tilt is still a very reliable move with many kill confirms even with DI on some characters, and if he predicts DI, up tilt has a few confirms at very strict percents. At low percents, he does still have his smashes (particularly forward smash), which can KO a little above 100%, and as a last resort at such percents, his grab and his 4 KO worthy throws can be used as a last resort. Plus, his fireballs can jab lock grounded opponents at a wide range of percents, which can lead straight into a Fire Jump Punch. You are right overall though; DI messes up his combos much more than I thought. It's pretty sad.

Matchup wise, while his matchups are pretty polarizing IMO, I feel he does have at least some niche against some characters (like Fox); I'll analyze these matchups further before making any future statements regarding this.

So yeah, further analysis does make Luigi fall apart quite a bit. Thanks for your reply. I still think 2nd worst is an overexaggeration, but mid tier does seem like wishful thinking. His lack of mains also hurts him a lot. Luigi certainly does have great potential in his moveset, but in the end, I guess results do come first. Hopefully, someone picks up Luigi and explores him further. (Who knows, maybe if I get my a** off the couch....)


Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:17 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 10:21 pm
Posts: 205
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
Sniper Assassin Deluxe wrote:
Sorry for replying so late. Been busy with other stuff.

Yeah, your comment did help me a lot. I forgot DI was an actual thing. It really f*** up Luigi's 150% up tilt kill confirms, and some of his other combos too. In his defense, though, he can still chase DI on his down tilt with an f-air (with difficulty), so I'd argue that down tilt is still a reliable combo tool in his own right.

Oh, his frame data isn't that fast? Damn. I though it was, since he's clearly based off SSB4 Luigi (who's starting lag on his moves is overall the fastest in said game, excluding special moves). Guess I've been playing SSB4 a bit too much.

And up air's range is that bad? I'll admit, when I tested it in Training to verify, that the range is actually even worse than what the pic implies. You practically have to be touching the opponent. Shame, it could have been a really great move. Hopefully, the range is fixed in 1.1.0.

Yeah, I guess I understand why Luigi is so low. I still have a few minor nitpicks; his approach is subpar and definitely one of his biggest weaknesses, but it's not quite as dreadful as it's made out to be, and he has a few ways to alleviate his traction with varying effectiveness. He can still approach with short hopped aerials, and he can use his fireballs to help cover his approach (they're great at doing so on most opponents), or he can just walk. His walk is nothing impressive, but it's not very susceptible to a skid, and he can combine this with fireballs and short hopped fireballs to maintain stage control (this is my preferred approach). His approach still does hold him back greatly, especially against faster characters/ones with disjoints as you said, but unlike a few other characters in SSF2, at least his options exist.

Luigi's recovery is a mixed bag IMO. While it can be halted pretty easily (Green Missile is slow and if you want to jump into it, you can stop it, and Super Jump Punch has no horizontal distance), and he's overly reliant on his midair jump like Falco and Yoshi, it has great distance potential, and his Luigi Cyclone's what saves it; it can be thrown out at different times to confuse your opponent and mix up recovery, and even without any mashing, it still stalls you at the last hit, so if high enough above the stage, you can choose not to button mash the Cyclone to further keep your opponent guessing. Even then, his recovery is probably Luigi's biggest weakness, and it does break some matchups.

While he can struggle to close out the stock at high percents, he still does have his options; like I said, down tilt is still a very reliable move with many kill confirms even with DI on some characters, and if he predicts DI, up tilt has a few confirms at very strict percents. At low percents, he does still have his smashes (particularly forward smash), which can KO a little above 100%, and as a last resort at such percents, his grab and his 4 KO worthy throws can be used as a last resort. Plus, his fireballs can jab lock grounded opponents at a wide range of percents, which can lead straight into a Fire Jump Punch. You are right overall though; DI messes up his combos much more than I thought. It's pretty sad.

Matchup wise, while his matchups are pretty polarizing IMO, I feel he does have at least some niche against some characters (like Fox); I'll analyze these matchups further before making any future statements regarding this.

So yeah, further analysis does make Luigi fall apart quite a bit. Thanks for your reply. I still think 2nd worst is an overexaggeration, but mid tier does seem like wishful thinking. His lack of mains also hurts him a lot. Luigi certainly does have great potential in his moveset, but in the end, I guess results do come first. Hopefully, someone picks up Luigi and explores him further. (Who knows, maybe if I get my a** off the couch....)


The thing about approach is that luigi cannot trade with his opponents like in Smash 4 meaning that in a lot of cases he has to depend too much on overusing neutral-special walling, and fireballs are actually really easy to clank with now and you can just whip out lets say a disjointed move or a move like Bandana Dee or DK's B-Air which will clank all of the fire balls AND hit luigi at the same time. Also Luigi shorthops like Michael Jordan so empty hops and Shorthop Aerials are out of the question (Also moves like Up-Air don't even hit the opponent when shorthopping).

Also regarding Luigi's frame data, it isn't awful but it isn't at all notable is what i'm saying. N-Air does come out frame 3 though which is nice and some of his moves come out somewhat early sometimes, however it's average at best anyways so it's nothing noteworthy + i believe some of Luigi's quicker moves are unsafe on shield depending on spacing.

The thing about Luigi's recovery is that with the port priority system it trades poorly and its really easy for luigi to be hit out of. his recovery or even meteored along with luigi cyclone not grabbing the ledge properly like some recoveries which is a huge issue. Yoshi at least has his stupid super armor or really good heavy armor (I'm assuming its superarmor but i may be wrong) to make his recovery pretty hard to gimp and Falco... yea his recovery is kind of infamous for being bad like fox, but both characters have insane punish games and a really good neutral to make up for it unlike luigi.

Luigi's Smash Attacks have enough trading issues and aren't the world's fastest smash attacks that still don't really have many ways to setup to make them reliable enough. Like he does have actual ways to kill compared to Sheik's pretty unreliable kill power (Though her neutral is pretty good) and Pac-Man when vs half of the cast who have decent hydrant play or just an opponent in general that can learn to counter or deal with hydrants well, so Luigi can at least kill compred to them. However when Luigi's combo game is considered pretty unimpressive in a meta where most characters can either constantly outneutral Luigi or deal 50-80% in one neutral even on Luigi, that's where his neutral issues and mediocre at best combo game and kill setups really struggle.

Luigi loses to Fox pretty hard as eventhough he can technically gimp Fox's recovery and Luigi's combo game actual beomes half-decent, Fox still wins in neutral in a lot of cases and N-Air and B-Air can be used to just clank with fire balls and hit luigi and win in neutral, also Luigi dies early at the top meaning that he'll die at 60. Most people like to give Fox too little credit for his overall easy to combo nature and recovery when fox has an insane punish game, juggle game, approach options, neutral game in some cases, laser camping, etc. Luigi also has near unwinnable matchups against most characters with disjoints and has a terrible matchup spread against pretty much everyone above him except for maybe Sandbag.

While having no notable results and ESPECIALLY no notable people that actually play Luigi (At least with all of the obscure characters, there is at least one person that is notable playing that character) is a problem, but it's far from a big one, it at best only affected Luigi's spot by like one or something and made Luigi's Metagame less expanded upon. However given what Luigi has currently, it is enough to place him as the worst character in the game imo and more people started placing him as the worst as well. Hell, I put him in his own tier as being the only truly unviable character because of his lack of true strengths and overall terrible matchup spread.

Like this is where I'd place Luigi currently in my tier list:

Attachment:
Final SSF2 1.0.3.2 Tier List-min.png
Final SSF2 1.0.3.2 Tier List-min.png [ 87.18 KiB | Viewed 2739 times ]


Anyways thanks. Poor luigi though... he was my third favorite waifu after sen-pac (in a love-hate relationship) and King Dedede (Swole is just <3 ).

_________________
Image


Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:49 am
Profile

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 4:34 pm
Posts: 18
Location: The Lab
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: SSF2, Brawl Minus, Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia, Sm4sh
Waifu: the succ
Reply with quote
at least he has a top 3 most obnoxious projectile in the game

so that's something

right?


Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:59 am
Profile
BR Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:33 pm
Posts: 2000
Country: Germany (de)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: TSF|Cookies
Currently Playing: PM, Melee, Ultimate, Hollow Knight
Reply with quote
Demon Fang, Tailsbot, Chibi Blaster are Top 3 tho :chibirobo:

_________________
Join Team Star Flash!
Image


Shoutouts to Harr for this sick player card!

Join Chibi Nation, the 20CR Discord for all aspiring Chibi-Robo mains!

Click to expand thumbnail


Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:00 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Flying Battery Zone, Dream Land, Doomsday Zone (sometimes), Tumblr, YouTube
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: SSF2, Roblox, Kirby Star Allies, Sonic Mania Plus, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, Pokemon Emerald, Leauge Of Legends
Waifu: Rosalina (Sm4sh)
Reply with quote
Sniper Assassin Deluxe wrote:
The recent tier list has been out for quite a bit, and there's still one thing in particular that perplexes me.

One big thing in particular. The placement of Mario's second man, the lanky rocker, the Green Thunder, :luigi: . For those who haven't seen the list and are too lazy to look it up, Luigi is one of two people in the lowest tier, D Tier, sitting at 38 out of 39 fighters (only above Naruto).

The big question is, WHY?

Luigi's been my main ever since the very day Beta first dropped. I've played him much more than any other character in the game, and I'd say I have a great understanding of him. Now please, hear me out, I think Luigi is SO, SO much better than D tier, for many a reason.

MY ARGUMENTS:

First and foremost, with many of the changes made to his moveset in SSF2, Luigi is now a very deadly offensive machine. He maintains his speedy frame data and other positive traits from SSB4, which makes him rather hard to punish, which, when considering how many applications his moves have, is very troublesome indeed.

First and foremost, I belive Luigi's combo ability is amongst the best in the game, and almost comparable to what it is in SSB4, with some of the easiest and most rewarding combo moves in the game. Luigi has a great jab cancel, with the first two hits of his jab being able to lead into almost the entire rest of his moveset, including most of his combo starters and some of his KO moves. (It leads into all of his tilts, all his smash attacks, some of his aerials, and his grab, one of Luigi's most efficient tools). Up Tilt is easily one of Luigi's most versatile tools; not only does it deal a solid 9%, but it has low base knockback and low knockback scaling, and has a great angle for comboing, and it can not only chain into itself, but it can easily chain into various other moves on all the cast (but it's still more effective on middleweights and heavier), even past KO percents. In fact, on most characters, you can keep comboing into aerials past 150%! Few other moves I know can combo at percents that high. And on middleweights like Mario, Luigi can combo his up tilt into his up aerial at 150%, which is a KO confirm at those percents (and is a true combo!) Luigi also has a just as viable alternate to his up tilt; his down tilt, which deals 8% and can combo into almost anything with ease at base to low percents on even the lightest characters, and thanks to low knockback scaling, it's knockback barely changes, which means it can score guaranteed kill combos at 150% and beyond on pretty much anyone not named Jigglypuff (at 150% on lightweights, it can true combo into both forward air's sweetspot and up air, which will both certiantly KO them (it also true combos into those moves on anyone heavier, but down tilt to up air will not KO middleweights and heavier unless they're on a platform) and while it's not so common, I've also been able to true combo into n-air, which will also KO most characters at those percents. Down tilt is pretty ridiculous, as down tilt to up air continues to be a true combo on lightweights at 180% damage at the least. He'd be fine with just those two combo moves, but he has more (his n air, his u air, throws, etc, which will all be elaborated on when it's time).

Even outside of those two moves, Luigi's moves still posses considerable utility; all of his smashes, even with their nerfs, remain very effective at KOing while still possessing utility; Uncharged forward smash can casually KO under 75% near the ledge, Uncharged up smash is great at comboing and kills at 114%, and uncharged down smash similarly kills at 108% and is good at comboing into aerials. His forward tilt deals 12% (very high for a move of it's type) and can lead into edgeguards while being able to KO itself near the edge at very high damage. His fireballs are great offensive tools, being just slow enough to remain a constant threat; Luigi can also have three onscreen at once and a single fireball covers more than half the length of Final Destination.

Aside from his smashes, all of his aerials can KO at very high percents while easily comboed into, and they themselves can function as efficient combo tools at varying percents. Special mention goes to up air, one of the most underrated aerials in the game IMO; basically, it's Mario's up aerial from SSB4 with comparable utility, being able to do much of the same things (it's vertical angle, rather consistent knockback, and it's fast speed allow it to combo into itself and many other moves, it can easily break combos while setting up into them itself, and can be thrown out as a surprise KO move near the top blast line at around 150%; It perfectly sums up Luigi; needs time getting used to, but a great all-purpose once mastered). Aside from his up air, n-air is basically a giant middle finger to opposing combos and can combo itself, forward air is great at approaching, especially with the help of fireballs, and can swiftly KO even with the sourspot, back air I belive KOs at 140% stale, and down air has very high knockback even at low percents, making it a great choice for low percent gimps.

And last but certianly not least, his grab game, one of his most crucial aspects, hasn't been nerfed at all to my knowledge.Which is great, because his down throw is even better for combos at low percents than in SSB4, while KOing at high percents for some reason. (In fact, ALL of his throws can reliably KO for some reason. I mean, say what? So basically, if you get grabbed by Luigi at kill percents, you're basically boned). His forward throw comes in second, having a low percent chaingrab and actually dealing more knockback than his back throw at kill percents for some reason. Back throw is basically a more damaging equivalent to f-throw at high percents. While up throw has less utility outside of killing, you can chase opponents with Luigi Cyclone, but this is far from guaranteed.

While Luigi certainly does have his fair share of flaws, I feel he can make up for them quite well with his great strengths, having one of the most versatile and most consistent combo games, regardless of the character's weight, gravity and falling speed, and being at least adept at most other areas. He can keep the pressure on the opponent, he has a great neutral game thanks to his combo ability and lightning fast frame data, and can KO easily given the opportunity, and has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT). There are better choices, but he is nowhere NEAR the second worst character in the game, and is also not even close to being a bottom fifteen. At the very least, he should be in the mid tier (not sure quite where in the mid tier, but that's definitely where he should be) given his great potential and powerful offense, and if more people show off what he can really do, then he could even rise up to the high tier. So, with all that in mind, can someone explain just why he's so low?

(Also, I'm a new user, and I see I forgot to introduce myself. Hey everybody! I'm very glad to be here on the forums!)


I feel totally bad for you. There is really no reason why they placed Luigi that low! Can we be considered friends? Because I'd like to be friends with you. I mean when you said that Luigi "has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT).", I instantly felt totally bad for you AND Luigi.


Attachments:
Rainy Turtloid.gif
Rainy Turtloid.gif [ 116.17 KiB | Viewed 1285 times ]

_________________
Mains: :kirby: :rayman: :blackmage:

Secondaries: :sonic: :mario: :captainfalcon: :simon:

YouTube Video:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:28 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 7:25 pm
Posts: 417
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Knuckles for SSF2
Currently Playing: Super Smash Flash 2
Reply with quote
This was last update. Luigi is top 15 this update. Also Luigi WAS bottom tier in 64, so I think he knows the pain.

_________________
SSF2 Mains: :bandanadee: :luigi: :chibirobo: :blackmage:
SSF2 Secondaries: Waluigi :pacman: :sheik: :sandbag: :rayman:
Ultimate Mains: :luigi: Snake Greninja :sonic: Olimar Vincent
Ultimate Secondaries: Toon Link, R.O.B. Richter, Roy, King K Rool, Lucas


Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:09 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:33 am
Posts: 24
Country: United States (us)
Reply with quote
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Sniper Assassin Deluxe wrote:
The recent tier list has been out for quite a bit, and there's still one thing in particular that perplexes me.

One big thing in particular. The placement of Mario's second man, the lanky rocker, the Green Thunder, :luigi: . For those who haven't seen the list and are too lazy to look it up, Luigi is one of two people in the lowest tier, D Tier, sitting at 38 out of 39 fighters (only above Naruto).

The big question is, WHY?

Luigi's been my main ever since the very day Beta first dropped. I've played him much more than any other character in the game, and I'd say I have a great understanding of him. Now please, hear me out, I think Luigi is SO, SO much better than D tier, for many a reason.

MY ARGUMENTS:

First and foremost, with many of the changes made to his moveset in SSF2, Luigi is now a very deadly offensive machine. He maintains his speedy frame data and other positive traits from SSB4, which makes him rather hard to punish, which, when considering how many applications his moves have, is very troublesome indeed.

First and foremost, I belive Luigi's combo ability is amongst the best in the game, and almost comparable to what it is in SSB4, with some of the easiest and most rewarding combo moves in the game. Luigi has a great jab cancel, with the first two hits of his jab being able to lead into almost the entire rest of his moveset, including most of his combo starters and some of his KO moves. (It leads into all of his tilts, all his smash attacks, some of his aerials, and his grab, one of Luigi's most efficient tools). Up Tilt is easily one of Luigi's most versatile tools; not only does it deal a solid 9%, but it has low base knockback and low knockback scaling, and has a great angle for comboing, and it can not only chain into itself, but it can easily chain into various other moves on all the cast (but it's still more effective on middleweights and heavier), even past KO percents. In fact, on most characters, you can keep comboing into aerials past 150%! Few other moves I know can combo at percents that high. And on middleweights like Mario, Luigi can combo his up tilt into his up aerial at 150%, which is a KO confirm at those percents (and is a true combo!) Luigi also has a just as viable alternate to his up tilt; his down tilt, which deals 8% and can combo into almost anything with ease at base to low percents on even the lightest characters, and thanks to low knockback scaling, it's knockback barely changes, which means it can score guaranteed kill combos at 150% and beyond on pretty much anyone not named Jigglypuff (at 150% on lightweights, it can true combo into both forward air's sweetspot and up air, which will both certiantly KO them (it also true combos into those moves on anyone heavier, but down tilt to up air will not KO middleweights and heavier unless they're on a platform) and while it's not so common, I've also been able to true combo into n-air, which will also KO most characters at those percents. Down tilt is pretty ridiculous, as down tilt to up air continues to be a true combo on lightweights at 180% damage at the least. He'd be fine with just those two combo moves, but he has more (his n air, his u air, throws, etc, which will all be elaborated on when it's time).

Even outside of those two moves, Luigi's moves still posses considerable utility; all of his smashes, even with their nerfs, remain very effective at KOing while still possessing utility; Uncharged forward smash can casually KO under 75% near the ledge, Uncharged up smash is great at comboing and kills at 114%, and uncharged down smash similarly kills at 108% and is good at comboing into aerials. His forward tilt deals 12% (very high for a move of it's type) and can lead into edgeguards while being able to KO itself near the edge at very high damage. His fireballs are great offensive tools, being just slow enough to remain a constant threat; Luigi can also have three onscreen at once and a single fireball covers more than half the length of Final Destination.

Aside from his smashes, all of his aerials can KO at very high percents while easily comboed into, and they themselves can function as efficient combo tools at varying percents. Special mention goes to up air, one of the most underrated aerials in the game IMO; basically, it's Mario's up aerial from SSB4 with comparable utility, being able to do much of the same things (it's vertical angle, rather consistent knockback, and it's fast speed allow it to combo into itself and many other moves, it can easily break combos while setting up into them itself, and can be thrown out as a surprise KO move near the top blast line at around 150%; It perfectly sums up Luigi; needs time getting used to, but a great all-purpose once mastered). Aside from his up air, n-air is basically a giant middle finger to opposing combos and can combo itself, forward air is great at approaching, especially with the help of fireballs, and can swiftly KO even with the sourspot, back air I belive KOs at 140% stale, and down air has very high knockback even at low percents, making it a great choice for low percent gimps.

And last but certianly not least, his grab game, one of his most crucial aspects, hasn't been nerfed at all to my knowledge.Which is great, because his down throw is even better for combos at low percents than in SSB4, while KOing at high percents for some reason. (In fact, ALL of his throws can reliably KO for some reason. I mean, say what? So basically, if you get grabbed by Luigi at kill percents, you're basically boned). His forward throw comes in second, having a low percent chaingrab and actually dealing more knockback than his back throw at kill percents for some reason. Back throw is basically a more damaging equivalent to f-throw at high percents. While up throw has less utility outside of killing, you can chase opponents with Luigi Cyclone, but this is far from guaranteed.

While Luigi certainly does have his fair share of flaws, I feel he can make up for them quite well with his great strengths, having one of the most versatile and most consistent combo games, regardless of the character's weight, gravity and falling speed, and being at least adept at most other areas. He can keep the pressure on the opponent, he has a great neutral game thanks to his combo ability and lightning fast frame data, and can KO easily given the opportunity, and has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT). There are better choices, but he is nowhere NEAR the second worst character in the game, and is also not even close to being a bottom fifteen. At the very least, he should be in the mid tier (not sure quite where in the mid tier, but that's definitely where he should be) given his great potential and powerful offense, and if more people show off what he can really do, then he could even rise up to the high tier. So, with all that in mind, can someone explain just why he's so low?

(Also, I'm a new user, and I see I forgot to introduce myself. Hey everybody! I'm very glad to be here on the forums!)


I feel totally bad for you. There is really no reason why they placed Luigi that low! Can we be considered friends? Because I'd like to be friends with you. I mean when you said that Luigi "has the tools to easily combat a great chunk of the characters above him (like a LOT).", I instantly felt totally bad for you AND Luigi.


I'm super late, but yeah, I'd like to be friends with you too.


Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:27 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.