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Tier List Discussion 
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Aite so ima make a final tier list for 1.1.0.1:

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The_Very_Final_SSF2_1.1.0.1_Tier_List_50.png
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Here's a few placement changes that i'd like to discuss.

Pac-Man: Oh Pac-Man, how you fell from grace from the current meta. Lately Pac-Man has been dropping on quite a few tier lists after the character hype died down as Ultimate released, and there's a few reason why. Pac-Man simply suffers from how the meta treats him and power creep just kind of ruined him and his chances of being a truly great character. One of Pac-Man's biggest issues that was realized after awhile was that his advantage state when compared to everyone else was EXTREMELY underwhelming. Pac-Man on hit couldn't actually do much to the opponent outside of nickel and diming them in a meta where most characters can kill you in one hit while having a decent enough neutral, especially the top tiers. In this meta of destroy or be destroyed Pac-Man has to actually work a lot harder when compared to most of the cast. His poor range and below average mobility really doesn't help his cause as it makes it super easy to wall Pac-Man himself ironically as he's a walling character himself. His Lack of Range and Rushdown Mobility makes him struggle against sword characters who are still quite meta-relevant and he's too slow to really approach himself against other defensive and zoner characters where he only really has measly fruits for niche projectile control with rushdown characters being viable enough for stuffing out most of Pac-Man's walling moves whilst most glass cannons have more reliable neutral options to get their gameplan working. Pac-Man really has to force the opponent to play his game to get anything done and there's too many variables to really make his gameplan consistent which gives him a ton of problematic matchups. Having one of the best kill throws in the game did fix one of his biggest issues in the form of killing, but having to fish for an extremely laggy grab still means that Pac-Man still isn't consistent on getting all 4 stocks done without dying at 60 for whiffing a grab. Pac-Man generally has a lot of issues in disadvantage due to his stubby moves and the fact that he's floaty with predictable landing options as well which really does put more salt onto the wound on this whole idea of Pac-Man not being consistently oppressive when most characters can.

Pac-Man is still a pretty solid character even with this due to his fantastic offstage game, access to fruits that are unreflectable and are probably the best move in SSF2 in its entirety, and he's still a zoner that can wall most of the cast out making him at the very least an annoying character that does have a lot of great niches. And having good frame data and a great OoS does do wonders too if Pac-Man wants to shrug off opponents for constant approaching as long as they aren't a rushdown character for the most part (or at the very least a GOOD rushdown character). He does beat most characters below him except for maybe Naruto and obviously Ness, but he struggles too much with the upper tiers and has too many other issues to really make him as good as he was formerly perceived to be.

Zelda: Lately Zelda has been seen to be much more efficient of a character than initially thought and for a couple of good reasons. Zelda's neutral is simply just not as bad as a lot of people initially thought. Her access to a reflector and Din's Fire means she's great at forcing approaches while she can go Shielda herself to approach if she needs to as well. Her access to moves that are safe on shield due to high shieldstun on most moves alongside half of her moves being flat out laughably lagless actually means that Zelda has decent frame data for literally no reason. She's fantastic on hit and is great offstage in both recovery and edge guarding. Zelda has a lot of great lightning kick confirms (alongside double sh bair) and she has access to a great kill throw and overall great grab game including a decent chaingrab game with down-throw depending on the chars. Her access to disjoints also helps accomodate this idea of Zelda being an efficient wall and her gameplan is simply too efficient against almost everyone. She's still got a bad disadvantage state and is a bit too light and floaty for her own good at times with her tall hurtbox meaning she can't escape certain combos like other smaller characters can as well alongside being a bit too sluggish in mobility. But Zelda is still extremely threatening and is a great meta contender.

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Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:07 pm
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/\

This is the best tier list I've found made by someone else other than me. Great job @playridise!

EDIT: Here is my second SSF2 v1.0.1 tier list, and it probably might be the last.

Attachment:
SSF2 Tier List #2.PNG
SSF2 Tier List #2.PNG [ 214.53 KiB | Viewed 1361 times ]


Enjoy, and feel free to either think I have an amazing tier list, or to point out some things I might've gotten wrong.

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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
/\

This is the best tier list I've found made by someone else other than me. Great job @playridise!

EDIT: Here is my second SSF2 v1.0.1 tier list, and it probably might be the last.

Attachment:
SSF2 Tier List #2.PNG


Enjoy, and feel free to either think I have an amazing tier list, or to point out some things I might've gotten wrong.

You've got a lot of s*** wrong.

I'm gonna reserve this post and edit it later so that I can explain things a bit better but lemme just give you a simple diagram

These characters are for the most part in the right tier:
:falco: :metaknight: :pacman: :luigi: :megaman: :naruto: :yoshi: :sora: :lloyd: :kirby:

These characters should go up a tier:
:sheik: :zelda: :captainfalcon: :samus: :link: :tails: :ichigo: :pikachu: :bomberman: PICHU :sandbag: :marth: :ness: :mario:

These character should go down a tier:
:chibirobo: :fox: :bandanadee: :bowser: :donkeykong: :wario: :luffy: :goku: :gameandwatch: :jigglypuff: :isaac: :zerosuitsamus: :sonic:

These characters are in the wrong place completely:
:peach: :pit:

These characters should probably go on the tier list:
:blackmage:

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Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:32 am
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TSF.Strife wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
/\

This is the best tier list I've found made by someone else other than me. Great job @playridise!

EDIT: Here is my second SSF2 v1.0.1 tier list, and it probably might be the last.

Attachment:
SSF2 Tier List #2.PNG


Enjoy, and feel free to either think I have an amazing tier list, or to point out some things I might've gotten wrong.

You've got a lot of s*** wrong.

I'm gonna reserve this post and edit it later so that I can explain things a bit better but lemme just give you a simple diagram

These characters are for the most part in the right tier:
:falco: :metaknight: :pacman: :luigi: :megaman: :naruto: :yoshi: :sora: :lloyd: :kirby:

These characters should go up a tier:
:sheik: :zelda: :captainfalcon: :samus: :link: :tails: :ichigo: :pikachu: :bomberman: PICHU :sandbag: :marth: :ness: :mario:

These character should go down a tier:
:chibirobo: :fox: :bandanadee: :bowser: :donkeykong: :wario: :luffy: :goku: :gameandwatch: :jigglypuff: :isaac: :zerosuitsamus: :sonic:

These characters are in the wrong place completely:
:peach: :pit:

These characters should probably go on the tier list:
:blackmage:

Ok but what about mines smh?

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Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:58 pm
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playridise wrote:
Aite so ima make a final tier list for 1.1.0.1:

Attachment:
The_Very_Final_SSF2_1.1.0.1_Tier_List_50.png

I think the only things weird with this are that Wario, Sandbag, BBM are too low. DK and Marth also could be a bit higher

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Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:41 pm
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Lermonz wrote:
playridise wrote:
Aite so ima make a final tier list for 1.1.0.1:

Attachment:
The_Very_Final_SSF2_1.1.0.1_Tier_List_50.png

I think the only things weird with this are that Wario, Sandbag, BBM are too low. DK and Marth also could be a bit higher

BBM mostly suffers from little mac syndrome as of course his advantage state and normals + bombs and his mobility are all great and are honestly stupid as hell. But his awful disadvantage, big hitbox + fast fall speed making him easy to chaingrab, horrendous recovery, and mostly underwhelming range and neutral makes BBM too polarizing. He doesn't really have the neutral to have the opponent really play his game with his awful grab range meaning that you can just space around hitboxes to punish his shieldgrab easily. Bombs are a bit too slow to be reliable neutral tools and he only really has time to setup them if the opponent is completely offstage, or if they're dead or BBM is dead and he's charging with his I-Frames. The fact that most mid tiers and above have either more reliable neutral tools, range, or have an advantage state that's just as good as him without nearly as many disadvantages is a big issue for him. Sandbag has that same issue but he's even more polarizing which isn't really a great impression for a tournament choice. Also DK sort of has this issue just replace neutral game issues (which are still apparent but you do have a few good moves) in exchange for being even easier to combo with no vertical recovery with ledge snap issues. But DK's better neutral does put him a tier above BBM.

Wario does have access to a short hurtbox thankfully with an explosive advantage state + comeback factor and access to a pretty good recovery and kill setups alongside having one of the best command grabs in the game that can partially chain grab and can be followed up from anything. But Wario's neutral is kinda garbo in SSF2 despite having a decent aerial drift as he possesses the worst range in the game with no projectiles and no real camping counterplay making him prone to swords and many bad matchups, his frame data is pretty poor as most moves are laggy, have high startup, are unsafe on shield, can't crossup. Also Wario doesn't really have approach options and has to rely a lot on chomp and its command grab properties despite its decent range. Wario is also slow on the ground even with good air speed meaning that he can't really rush people down with much. It takes too long to get things going and Wario in disadvantage is still quite abysmal. Wario has to get things going for four straight stocks even if one of them is sort of negligible due to waft confirms but he honestly has too many bad matchups to really have him abuse his best aspects properly. Def a mid tier.

Marth is nice and all but he really struggles from Marthiritis making him a bit inconsistent in a game with 4 stocks a game and he doesn't really have the best landing options meaning you can just wait him out and his lack of aerial drift just means that you can just abuse shieldgrab on him half of the time. Marth isn't too great in disadvantage and he sort of has a tall frame. Also his advantage state isn't TOO ridiculous when compared to certain chars and he's just honestly carried by his sword. He's pretty good but i think he's fine where he is.

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playridise wrote:
BBM mostly suffers from little mac syndrome as of course his advantage state and normals + bombs and his mobility are all great and are honestly stupid as hell. But his awful disadvantage, big hitbox + fast fall speed making him easy to chaingrab, horrendous recovery, and mostly underwhelming range and neutral makes BBM too polarizing. He doesn't really have the neutral to have the opponent really play his game with his awful grab range meaning that you can just space around hitboxes to punish his shieldgrab easily. Bombs are a bit too slow to be reliable neutral tools and he only really has time to setup them if the opponent is completely offstage, or if they're dead or BBM is dead and he's charging with his I-Frames. The fact that most mid tiers and above have either more reliable neutral tools, range, or have an advantage state that's just as good as him without nearly as many disadvantages is a big issue for him.

That little mac's syndrome that BBM apparently has is not right compared to little mac, bomberman does a useful vertical recovery if he's under the stage ledges, of course his Up-B is bad off the stages.

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Last edited by Dust_the_1000 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:10 pm
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Dust_the_1000 wrote:
playridise wrote:
BBM mostly suffers from little mac syndrome as of course his advantage state and normals + bombs and his mobility are all great and are honestly stupid as hell. But his awful disadvantage, big hitbox + fast fall speed making him easy to chaingrab, horrendous recovery, and mostly underwhelming range and neutral makes BBM too polarizing. He doesn't really have the neutral to have the opponent really play his game with his awful grab range meaning that you can just space around hitboxes to punish his shieldgrab easily. Bombs are a bit too slow to be reliable neutral tools and he only really has time to setup them if the opponent is completely offstage, or if they're dead or BBM is dead and he's charging with his I-Frames. The fact that most mid tiers and above have either more reliable neutral tools, range, or have an advantage state that's just as good as him without nearly as many disadvantages is a big issue for him.

That little mac's syndrome that BBM apparently has is not right compared to little mac, bomberman does a useful horizontal recovery if he's under the stage ledges, of course his Up-B is bad off the stages.

By that you mean vertical. However BBM Up-B has too much startup and due to BBM being a fast faller with not super stellar air speed, it's still not a great recovery.

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playridise wrote:
Aite so ima make a final tier list for 1.1.0.1:

Attachment:
The_Very_Final_SSF2_1.1.0.1_Tier_List_50.png


Okay, lemme fire off some criticisms about this tier list. I'm going to keep everything short because I know that absolutely none of these will be taken on board.

Sheik should realistically be #1. She can do pretty much everything as opposed to in 1.0.3.2 where she could do basically nothing well, being able to play defensive and offensive to an effective degree. Meta Knight is somewhat lacking in this department to an extent, although he definitely does belong there.

Luigi does not belong at 6th (I'm not counting Shielda), and Chibi-Robo 100% does not belong up there. If I had to take a stab at the top 10, it'd be Sheik > Peach > Falco > MK > Zelda > Tails > Link > Ichigo > Pac-Man/Samus/Luigi (pick two). Luigi still suffers from having terrible range and his projectile being much better due to the trading changes doesn't really help his neutral when almost every character either has their own projectile, an effective way to deal with projectiles or the mobility to just avoid them outright, and his range is still extremely poor in a game where disjoints basically rule the roost. Chibi Robo meanwhile, simply has the problem of having absolutely terrible frame data and an abysmal disadvantage state.

Pacman. Dude. This isn't 1.0.3.2 anymore. Pac-Man may not have Key Jacket anymore, but it still doesn't change the fact that he has one of the best neutral specials in the game in the form of Bonus Fruit. He has a bunch of incredible normals, incredible edgeguarding, ledgetrapping and a great OoS option in the form of Trampoline because you can't shield it. I love both Bowser and Lloyd to bits, but they don't belong above Pacman. Pacman belongs in A Tier at a bare minimum.

Speaking of Bowser actually, he can probably go at the bottom of high tier. Pit can also move down. He's still very distinctly average.

As for mid tier, the most glaring things are that Wario can move up to B+, Ness can move up to B, Bomberman can move up to B as welll, and Dee, Isaac and Jigglypuff can move down into C+.
Wario is basically good for all the same reasons Bowser is good, except he's faster to a degree, and he has a much better disadvantage state at the cost of range. Ness also still has good disjoints, a solid grab game and a pretty solid overall neutral. He doesn't have his insanity chaingrab, but he's still solid. Bomberman has the distinction of basically being able to perpetually force a 50/50 on stage at all times due to Bombs, which no character can do and his Bombs are incredible for area denial. Additionally, he still has a good grab game and punish game.

Dee is the epitome of how not to make a light character. He cannot kill, his zoning is mediocre, his mobility is mediocre, and he has the lowest weight and worst recovery of all the light characters, which seriously hinders him in just about every matchup because he will often die to a touch whilst he struggles to get his opponent to a high percent.

In terms of Low Tier. Pichu isn't the worst. That honour now belongs to Game and Watch. It's pretty bad when you have a disjoint character who's neutral tools leave him disadvantaged on trade whilst he also has all the same issue that plague Bandana Dee. Pichu at the very least has a solid base of being Pikachu-lite to work with and has a comeback mechanic of some degree thanks to Discharge (albeit, not a very good one). Isaac is an absolute tragedy akin to that of 1.0.2 Chibi-Robo. Abysmal frame data, struggles to kill, bad disadvantage, on top of this he's got a mediocre neutral, a mediocre advantage, weak grab game and he's just generally a complete mess of a character that doesn't really belong anywhere near mid tier, and Jigglypuff still dies early in a metagame where she doesn't have the advantage of clanking nor the setups to reliably set up quick and easy kills.

If I had to remake your low tier, I'd have Sandbag > Goku > Dee > Pichu > BM > Jiggs > (C) GW.

I'd also like to say, that Kaioken Goku actually has some insanely good s*** (1.0.2-style Bthrow chaingrabs anyone?) and we really just haven't delved deep enough into Goku nor come close to unlocking the kind of things he can do. Base Goku sucks though

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Speaking of Goku, his UpB can pseudo-wavedash rather well, jumping then immediately doing UpB gives a rather quick and long pseudo-wavedash (doing too late will just be his normal aerial UpB), while floating on the ground + UpB gives a bit less distance, but can be much more reliably done even if you're lagging
So i suppose this could give him some better mobility options, even if it's just on the ground

gif: show
Image
First 2 were done by jumping then an immediate UpB, the middle 2 by floating then UpB, and the last 2 were just done on the ground - which doesn't pseudo-wavedash


edit: oh yeah he can also sorta "telefrag" since he can attack about as soon as he reappears (down smash being one of the better options i've seen so far, as it covers both sides)

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Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:12 am
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CraftGMC wrote:
Speaking of Goku, his UpB can pseudo-wavedash rather well, jumping then immediately doing UpB gives a rather quick and long pseudo-wavedash (doing too late will just be his normal aerial UpB), while floating on the ground + UpB gives a bit less distance, but can be much more reliably done even if you're lagging
So i suppose this could give him some better mobility options, even if it's just on the ground

gif: show
[ Image ]
First 2 were done by jumping then an immediate UpB, the middle 2 by floating then UpB, and the last 2 were just done on the ground - which doesn't pseudo-wavedash


edit: oh yeah he can also sorta "telefrag" since he can attack about as soon as he reappears (down smash being one of the better options i've seen so far, as it covers both sides)

This is known. In fact, you can actually optimise this further by using a low float.

This makes me realise that I should get my Goku guide sorted tomorrow...

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Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:47 pm
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TSF.Strife wrote:
This is known. In fact, you can actually optimise this further by using a low float.


actually that's what i meant by "floating on the ground", i just forgot what was it exactly called, thanks for reminding me anyways lol
but yeah, low float UpB has a shorter pseudo-wavedash than jump-UpB, but is much more reliable as you don't have to worry about lag (nor needs perfect timing, since doing it too late will result in a normal aerial UpB with no pseudo-wavedash)

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CraftGMC wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
This is known. In fact, you can actually optimise this further by using a low float.


actually that's what i meant by "floating on the ground", i just forgot what was it exactly called, thanks for reminding me anyways lol
but yeah, low float UpB has a shorter pseudo-wavedash than jump-UpB, but is much more reliable as you don't have to worry about lag (nor needs perfect timing, since doing it too late will result in a normal aerial UpB with no pseudo-wavedash)

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I'm just gonna refer you to this.

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TSF.Strife wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
/\

This is the best tier list I've found made by someone else other than me. Great job @playridise!

EDIT: Here is my second SSF2 v1.0.1 tier list, and it probably might be the last.

Attachment:
SSF2 Tier List #2.PNG


Enjoy, and feel free to either think I have an amazing tier list, or to point out some things I might've gotten wrong.

You've got a lot of s*** wrong.

I'm gonna reserve this post and edit it later so that I can explain things a bit better but lemme just give you a simple diagram

These characters are for the most part in the right tier:
:falco: :metaknight: :pacman: :luigi: :megaman: :naruto: :yoshi: :sora: :lloyd: :kirby:

These characters should go up a tier:
:sheik: :zelda: :captainfalcon: :samus: :link: :tails: :ichigo: :pikachu: :bomberman: PICHU :sandbag: :marth: :ness: :mario:

These character should go down a tier:
:chibirobo: :fox: :bandanadee: :bowser: :donkeykong: :wario: :luffy: :goku: :gameandwatch: :jigglypuff: :isaac: :zerosuitsamus: :sonic:

These characters are in the wrong place completely:
:peach: :pit:

These characters should probably go on the tier list:
:blackmage:


Oops! Sorry if I left out Black Mage. :sweat:

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CraftGMC wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
This is known. In fact, you can actually optimise this further by using a low float.


actually that's what i meant by "floating on the ground", i just forgot what was it exactly called, thanks for reminding me anyways lol
but yeah, low float UpB has a shorter pseudo-wavedash than jump-UpB, but is much more reliable as you don't have to worry about lag (nor needs perfect timing, since doing it too late will result in a normal aerial UpB with no pseudo-wavedash)

In fact low float has a shorter pseudo wavedash. Another fact is that Goku in Kaioken mode is unable to pseudo wavedash in both (low float and jump).

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