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Tier List Discussion 
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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
I know you have your own opinion on Captain Falcon's placement and I can agree with that. But I still think that he should be in A-Tier, because even with Kirby's worse knockback with his version of Falcon Punch, it is faster, more deadly (it does 9% more damage than Falcon's)
As I said before, it's power literally doesn't matter when Kirby gets absolutely nothing out of the move that he doesn't already have with Hammer, and Hammer literally does it's job better especially as Kirby can combo into the move. Also, as I mentioned (which you seemingly ignored), Kirby's Falcon Punch has the same damage and less knockback and literally only marginally faster startup that isn't fast enough to be useful.

…but that's not the end of the oddities I found on this list, there is a few more suggestions I'd like to point out.

1. :metaknight:: Meta Knight can move up to S-Tier, as his Mach Tornado has a good amount of range needed to recover, and it can rapid combo as well.
Meta Knight's copy ability does buff some of his punish game and gives him a recovery option, however, when compared to PAC-MAN which is so ridiculous that it literally buffs EVERYTHING (edgeguarding, neutral, punish, even a little bit of recovery) or Falco, which makes his neutral unbelievably ridiculous, Meta Knight absolutely does not hold a candle to either of the two.


2. :zerosuitsamus: & :sora:: ZSS and Sora have to move up to A-Tier. I'm okay with where you placed them, but ZSS should probably be behind Samus at best, because of how the Paralyzer works like Falco's laser, but it's yellow and moves a bit slower. Sora's neutral B can also interfere with opponent recoveries, so he should be up at A-Tier as well. Otherwise, not too bad of a tier.
Zero Suit's projectile is a pretty significant commitment, and is kind of okay at forcing approaches and enabling Kirby to approach as you can't cancel the charging. Everyone in A Tier either has a projectile that outright seriously benefits his neutral and maybe some others, OR they have something with a serious punish factor (like Luffy). Sora's projectile is really only good for ledgetrapping and combo extension, as you will get stuck there in the move's lag.

3. :chibirobo:: Chibi-Robo could move down to B-Tier. Sure, it's not that bad of a move, but it's basically a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer. Still, not too bad of an A-Tier otherwise.
Chibi-Robo's is actually basically a worse Falco laser and the ability to rapid fire and angle the move actually significantly improves upon Kirby's neutral. Furthermore, you aren't limited by the charging not being cancellable (cause there's no charging)

4. :bomberman: & [Pichu]: Bomberman and Pichu can move up to B-Tier, as Kirby's version of Bomberman's Neutral B can interfere with opponent recoveries, and with the exception of self-damage, Pichu's Neutral B is more powerful than Pikachu's.
Bomberman has a projectile that does 10% and only really works in ledgetraps and edgeguarding. Problem is, Inhale is already really good at ledgetrapping so it's basically down to preference. Pichu's projectile has good aspects, however, it's got some slow speed and a really awkward angle, which generally makes it a little impractical.

5. :peach: & :zelda:: Peach and Zelda can move down a tier. Sure, Zelda's neutral B can block projectiles, but that's the only good thing about it. Also, Peach's neutral B is totally useless, because you need to have perfect timing in order to have the move hit!
Peach and Zelda have situational use due to being a counter and reflector respectively, whereas Sandbag forces Kirby to wait like two seconds and is dependent on items entirely, and Rollout, Falcon Punch and PK Flash are generally completely useless.


Pmorken wrote:
Could you elaborate on why you believe G&W is above Peach? In my eyes, Chef simply doesn't help any aspect of Kirby besides his edgeguarding, and even then, edgeguarding a G&W is quite easy for Kirby and he doesn't ever need to use Chef. In Peach's case, her ability is essentially a counter (that works more often than Marth's) and using it in the air for the first time will send Kirby upwards, which means that he can use it to recover while being protected by Toad.

(Also, how are you making your tier lists? Yours are a lot cleaner looking than mine.)

1. It does give him a decent projectile that he can use to harass Game and Watch on ledge with and even use as a close range option, whereas Peach's utility is limited to recovery stalling and a situational counter.

2. https://randallstrife.github.io/smash-apps/tier/

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Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:00 am
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The Kirby's hats tier list are such as a headache, needs to own its discussion thread.

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Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:01 am
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TSF.Strife wrote:
Psycho Quotes: show
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
I know you have your own opinion on Captain Falcon's placement and I can agree with that. But I still think that he should be in A-Tier, because even with Kirby's worse knockback with his version of Falcon Punch, it is faster, more deadly (it does 9% more damage than Falcon's)
As I said before, it's power literally doesn't matter when Kirby gets absolutely nothing out of the move that he doesn't already have with Hammer, and Hammer literally does it's job better especially as Kirby can combo into the move. Also, as I mentioned (which you seemingly ignored), Kirby's Falcon Punch has the same damage and less knockback and literally only marginally faster startup that isn't fast enough to be useful.

…but that's not the end of the oddities I found on this list, there is a few more suggestions I'd like to point out.

1. :metaknight:: Meta Knight can move up to S-Tier, as his Mach Tornado has a good amount of range needed to recover, and it can rapid combo as well.
Meta Knight's copy ability does buff some of his punish game and gives him a recovery option, however, when compared to PAC-MAN which is so ridiculous that it literally buffs EVERYTHING (edge guarding, neutral, punish, even a little bit of recovery) or Falco, which makes his neutral unbelievably ridiculous, Meta Knight absolutely does not hold a candle to either of the two.


2. :zerosuitsamus: & :sora:: ZSS and Sora have to move up to A-Tier. I'm okay with where you placed them, but ZSS should probably be behind Samus at best, because of how the Paralyzer works like Falco's laser, but it's yellow and moves a bit slower. Sora's neutral B can also interfere with opponent recoveries, so he should be up at A-Tier as well. Otherwise, not too bad of a tier.
Zero Suit's projectile is a pretty significant commitment, and is kind of okay at forcing approaches and enabling Kirby to approach as you can't cancel the charging. Everyone in A Tier either has a projectile that outright seriously benefits his neutral and maybe some others, OR they have something with a serious punish factor (like Luffy). Sora's projectile is really only good for ledge trapping and combo extension, as you will get stuck there in the move's lag.

3. :chibirobo:: Chibi-Robo could move down to B-Tier. Sure, it's not that bad of a move, but it's basically a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer. Still, not too bad of an A-Tier otherwise.
Chibi-Robo's is actually basically a worse Falco laser and the ability to rapid fire and angle the move actually significantly improves upon Kirby's neutral. Furthermore, you aren't limited by the charging not being cancellable (cause there's no charging)

4. :bomberman: & [Pichu]: Bomberman and Pichu can move up to B-Tier, as Kirby's version of Bomberman's Neutral B can interfere with opponent recoveries, and with the exception of self-damage, Pichu's Neutral B is more powerful than Pikachu's.
Bomberman has a projectile that does 10% and only really works in ledge traps and edge guarding. Problem is, Inhale is already really good at ledge trapping so it's basically down to preference. Pichu's projectile has good aspects, however, it's got some slow speed and a really awkward angle, which generally makes it a little impractical.

5. :peach: & :zelda:: Peach and Zelda can move down a tier. Sure, Zelda's neutral B can block projectiles, but that's the only good thing about it. Also, Peach's neutral B is totally useless, because you need to have perfect timing in order to have the move hit!
Peach and Zelda have situational use due to being a counter and reflector respectively, whereas Sandbag forces Kirby to wait like two seconds and is dependent on items entirely, and Rollout, Falcon Punch and PK Flash are generally completely useless.


Okay, not trying to be rude here, but first of all, you can put your quotes outside of mine. Second, Rollout can SHIELD BREAK, so it's actually useful and should be much higher. But I agree with you on the Ness placement, PK Flash is useless. Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension.
However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD. Next, on Peach and Captain Falcon. Starting with Peach, like I said again: PERFECT TIMING is required. If you use the move too early or too late, you'll get hit, so it has that risk-reward ratio on it, which is why I put it lower on my list.
Now for Captain Falcon. Like I said, even with the worse knockback, it's faster, and if you can follow it up with an attack or two well, it'll kill around 48% damage, making it more deadly. Finally, let's talk about Chibi-Robo. Again, Chibi-Robo's Chibi-Blaster can't stun like Falco's Blaster or Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer can, which is why I said this:

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
...it's a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer.


And not this:

TSF.Strife wrote:
Chibi-Robo's is actually basically a worse Falco laser.


I hope next time you do this, you'll probably would've learned not to put your words inside my quotes when you quote me.

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But he was merely answering your question...he knows how the forums work (maybe because he's a veteran? lol).

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:34 am
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Well then. Didnt think Id come back to this place so early, but my "someone talks nonsense about Chibi" alarms have gone off once again it seems. Lets see.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Finally, let's talk about Chibi-Robo. Again, Chibi-Robo's Chibi-Blaster can't stun like Falco's Blaster or Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer can, which is why I said this:

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
...it's a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer.


Both of these are incorrect. Chibi-Blaster does inflict hitstun when it hits. A decent amount actually. Combined with the angling ability of the move and rapid fire this easily makes for one of the most impeccable projectiles in the game, being able to harass opponents from afar, snipe recoveries efficiently, Jab Lock, anti-air and more. Id argue it does a tad too much hitstun, but I also havent played this game in quite a while, so who knows.

Blaster is also significantly better than ZSS's paralyser. It shoots faster, covers more range, has less ending lag and doesnt need to be charged to be as useful as possible. Sure, ZSS gets more out of a fully charged shot, but that can be tricky to land in the first place. Its not a move you can throw out in neutral that often compared to Blaster, which happens to be one of the best neutral tools in the game as well as excelling in several other areas as mentioned above. No contest really. As for the other stuff...

Kirby really doesnt gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isnt neccessarily bad per se, its just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus youre giving up Inhale entirely for a move thats essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using Im afraid.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension.
However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.


The part I highlighted is easily the biggest issue here. You are making your argument based entirely on the assumption of the opponent refusing to show any sort of awareness when recovering. Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now youre stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edgeguard. Im not saying that Strife Raid is bad for edgeguarding, just that your argumentation was flawed there.

To take a final look at the tier list that seems to have started this whole mess, Id like to briefly talk about Kirby's version of the Chibi-Blaster. To keep thigns simple, getting the Copy Ability in this matchup is pretty much key for Kirby to stand a chance unless he is fine with getting outcamped the entire match. Without it Kirby struggles to get in against an S-Tier projectile combined with massive hitboxes, especially given his lackluster mobility. Once he has it, he can arguably put it to better use than Chibi himself can thanks to his multiple jumps and smaller hurtbox, giving him an amazing air camping tool (and spoiler alert, Chibi cant really contest his own projectile outside of powershielding because Pick Up is a broken mess). Yes, you do lose Inhale, but actually being able to fight back from a distance outside of crouching is invaluable.

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Cookies quotes so the page doesnt get stretched: show
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Well then. Didnt think Id come back to this place so early, but my "someone talks nonsense about Chibi" alarms have gone off once again it seems. Lets see.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Finally, let's talk about Chibi-Robo. Again, Chibi-Robo's Chibi-Blaster can't stun like Falco's Blaster or Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer can, which is why I said this:

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
...it's a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer.


Both of these are incorrect. Chibi-Blaster does inflict hitstun when it hits. A decent amount actually. Combined with the angling ability of the move and rapid fire this easily makes for one of the most impeccable projectiles in the game, being able to harass opponents from afar, snipe recoveries efficiently, Jab Lock, anti-air and more. Id argue it does a tad too much hitstun, but I also havent played this game in quite a while, so who knows.

Blaster is also significantly better than ZSS's paralyser. It shoots faster, covers more range, has less ending lag and doesnt need to be charged to be as useful as possible. Sure, ZSS gets more out of a fully charged shot, but that can be tricky to land in the first place. Its not a move you can throw out in neutral that often compared to Blaster, which happens to be one of the best neutral tools in the game as well as excelling in several other areas as mentioned above. No contest really. As for the other stuff...

Kirby really doesnt gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isnt neccessarily bad per se, its just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus youre giving up Inhale entirely for a move thats essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using Im afraid.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension.
However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.


The part I highlighted is easily the biggest issue here. You are making your argument based entirely on the assumption of the opponent refusing to show any sort of awareness when recovering. Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now youre stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edgeguard. Im not saying that Strife Raid is bad for edgeguarding, just that your argumentation was flawed there.

To take a final look at the tier list that seems to have started this whole mess, Id like to briefly talk about Kirby's version of the Chibi-Blaster. To keep thigns simple, getting the Copy Ability in this matchup is pretty much key for Kirby to stand a chance unless he is fine with getting outcamped the entire match. Without it Kirby struggles to get in against an S-Tier projectile combined with massive hitboxes, especially given his lackluster mobility. Once he has it, he can arguably put it to better use than Chibi himself can thanks to his multiple jumps and smaller hurtbox, giving him an amazing air camping tool (and spoiler alert, Chibi cant really contest his own projectile outside of powershielding because Pick Up is a broken mess). Yes, you do lose Inhale, but actually being able to fight back from a distance outside of crouching is invaluable.

100% agree.

So, let's address what wasn't covered by Cookies.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Okay, not trying to be rude here, but first of all, you can put your quotes outside of mine.

This is literally the least offensive thing you can do on the forums and I'm literally just doing this to conserve space. Also, it allows me to directly address points in places which is much much easier for me to do. Chill out.
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Second, Rollout can SHIELD BREAK, so it's actually useful and should be much higher.

Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Now for Captain Falcon. Like I said, even with the worse knockback, it's faster, and if you can follow it up with an attack or two well, it'll kill around 48% damage, making it more deadly.

Okay, what?! This doesn't make any sense. You can't combo off Falcon Punch and literally nothing combos into it, and as Cookies very accurately put.
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Kirby really doesnt gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isnt necessarily bad per se, its just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus youre giving up Inhale entirely for a move thats essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using Im afraid.

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TSF.Strife wrote:
[box=Cookies quotes so the page doesn't get stretched]
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Well then. Didn't think I'd come back to this place so early, but my "someone talks nonsense about Chibi" alarms have gone off once again it seems. Lets see.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Finally, let's talk about Chibi-Robo. Again, Chibi-Robo's Chibi-Blaster can't stun like Falco's Blaster or Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer can, which is why I said this:

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
...it's a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer.


Both of these are incorrect. Chibi-Blaster does inflict hit-stun when it hits. A decent amount actually. Combined with the angling ability of the move and rapid fire this easily makes for one of the most impeccable projectiles in the game, being able to harass opponents from afar, snipe recoveries efficiently, Jab Lock, anti-air and more. Id argue it does a tad too much hit-stun, but I also haven't played this game in quite a while, so who knows.

Blaster is also significantly better than ZSS's paralyzer. It shoots faster, covers more range, has less ending lag and doesn't need to be charged to be as useful as possible. Sure, ZSS gets more out of a fully charged shot, but that can be tricky to land in the first place. Its not a move you can throw out in neutral that often compared to Blaster, which happens to be one of the best neutral tools in the game as well as excelling in several other areas as mentioned above. No contest really. As for the other stuff...

Kirby really doesn't gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isn't necessarily bad per se, its just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus you're giving up Inhale entirely for a move that's essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using I'm afraid.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension.
However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.


The part I highlighted is easily the biggest issue here. You are making your argument based entirely on the assumption of the opponent refusing to show any sort of awareness when recovering. Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now you're stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edge guard. I'm not saying that Strife Raid is bad for edge guarding, just that your argumentation was flawed there.

To take a final look at the tier list that seems to have started this whole mess, Id like to briefly talk about Kirby's version of the Chibi-Blaster. To keep things simple, getting the Copy Ability in this matchup is pretty much key for Kirby to stand a chance unless he is fine with getting out-camped the entire match. Without it Kirby struggles to get in against an S-Tier projectile combined with massive hitboxes, especially given his lackluster mobility. Once he has it, he can arguably put it to better use than Chibi himself can thanks to his multiple jumps and smaller hurt box, giving him an amazing air camping tool (and spoiler alert, Chibi cant really contest his own projectile outside of power shielding because Pick Up is a broken mess). Yes, you do lose Inhale, but actually being able to fight back from a distance outside of crouching is invaluable.
[/box]
100% agree.

So, let's address what wasn't covered by Cookies.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Okay, not trying to be rude here, but first of all, you can put your quotes outside of mine.

This is literally the least offensive thing you can do on the forums and I'm literally just doing this to conserve space. Also, it allows me to directly address points in places which is much easier for me to do. Chill out.
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Second, Rollout can SHIELD BREAK, so it's actually useful and should be much higher.

Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Now for Captain Falcon. Like I said, even with the worse knockback, it's faster, and if you can follow it up with an attack or two well, it'll kill around 48% damage, making it more deadly.

Okay, what?! This doesn't make any sense. You can't combo off Falcon Punch and literally nothing combos into it, and as Cookies very accurately put.
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Kirby really doesn't gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isn't necessarily bad per se, it's just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus you're giving up Inhale entirely for a move that's essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using I'm afraid.


First off, you won't like me when I'm angry. And second...

OK, what?! This doesn't make any sense!

I can make out a few similarities between both of you. You guys use NO EVIDENCE whatsoever when you try and prove a point you think I got wrong. Also, you both don't use apostrophes unless you're talking about a specific character. And you spell "necessarily" wrong.

Now onto Falcon Punch. While I used Kirby in Classic Mode, and Falcon was the first match, I got Falcon's ability, and I then combed Falcon Punch into D-Air and a few side tilts, and it killed at 48%, which even Falcon couldn't have recovered from THAT!
Next Rollout.

TSF.Strife wrote:
Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.


/\

That is pathetic. You don't even have evidence on this. Like Marth's shield break, it can stun opponents for a while, and the opponent literally stands still after he/she lands on the ground, which literally puts you at the advantage! Next, Strife Raid.

TSF|Cookies wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension. However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.

Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now you're stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edge guard.


The part I highlighted is a problem. I said that because if they're close to the blast zone and need to recover, you can easily punish them with Strife Raid until they're at high damage and fly into the blast zone. This ain't Smash 2* anymore, kid. This is SSF2 territory. (*: Smash 2 is one of the nicknames for Super Smash Bros. Melee.)

There are a few reasons on why your rant is totally worthless, Strife. Y' happy?

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:21 pm
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do you like, play against bots or something?

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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
         
TSF.Strife wrote:
[box=Cookies quotes so the page doesn't get stretched]
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Well then. Didn't think I'd come back to this place so early, but my "someone talks nonsense about Chibi" alarms have gone off once again it seems. Lets see.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Finally, let's talk about Chibi-Robo. Again, Chibi-Robo's Chibi-Blaster can't stun like Falco's Blaster or Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer can, which is why I said this:

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
...it's a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer.


Both of these are incorrect. Chibi-Blaster does inflict hit-stun when it hits. A decent amount actually. Combined with the angling ability of the move and rapid fire this easily makes for one of the most impeccable projectiles in the game, being able to harass opponents from afar, snipe recoveries efficiently, Jab Lock, anti-air and more. Id argue it does a tad too much hit-stun, but I also haven't played this game in quite a while, so who knows.

Blaster is also significantly better than ZSS's paralyzer. It shoots faster, covers more range, has less ending lag and doesn't need to be charged to be as useful as possible. Sure, ZSS gets more out of a fully charged shot, but that can be tricky to land in the first place. Its not a move you can throw out in neutral that often compared to Blaster, which happens to be one of the best neutral tools in the game as well as excelling in several other areas as mentioned above. No contest really. As for the other stuff...

Kirby really doesn't gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isn't necessarily bad per se, its just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus you're giving up Inhale entirely for a move that's essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using I'm afraid.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension.
However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.


The part I highlighted is easily the biggest issue here. You are making your argument based entirely on the assumption of the opponent refusing to show any sort of awareness when recovering. Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now you're stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edge guard. I'm not saying that Strife Raid is bad for edge guarding, just that your argumentation was flawed there.

To take a final look at the tier list that seems to have started this whole mess, Id like to briefly talk about Kirby's version of the Chibi-Blaster. To keep things simple, getting the Copy Ability in this matchup is pretty much key for Kirby to stand a chance unless he is fine with getting out-camped the entire match. Without it Kirby struggles to get in against an S-Tier projectile combined with massive hitboxes, especially given his lackluster mobility. Once he has it, he can arguably put it to better use than Chibi himself can thanks to his multiple jumps and smaller hurt box, giving him an amazing air camping tool (and spoiler alert, Chibi cant really contest his own projectile outside of power shielding because Pick Up is a broken mess). Yes, you do lose Inhale, but actually being able to fight back from a distance outside of crouching is invaluable.
[/box]
100% agree.

So, let's address what wasn't covered by Cookies.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Okay, not trying to be rude here, but first of all, you can put your quotes outside of mine.

This is literally the least offensive thing you can do on the forums and I'm literally just doing this to conserve space. Also, it allows me to directly address points in places which is much easier for me to do. Chill out.
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Second, Rollout can SHIELD BREAK, so it's actually useful and should be much higher.

Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Now for Captain Falcon. Like I said, even with the worse knockback, it's faster, and if you can follow it up with an attack or two well, it'll kill around 48% damage, making it more deadly.

Okay, what?! This doesn't make any sense. You can't combo off Falcon Punch and literally nothing combos into it, and as Cookies very accurately put.
TSF|Cookies wrote:
Kirby really doesn't gain much from Falcon Punch. Hammer is barely any slower, stronger, disjointed and stays out for much longer, which makes it preferable in most situations. Kirby Punch isn't necessarily bad per se, it's just outclassed in just about every aspect. Plus you're giving up Inhale entirely for a move that's essentially another Hammer except worse. Not really worth using I'm afraid.


First off, you won't like me when I'm angry. And second...

OK, what?! This doesn't make any sense!

I can make out a few similarities between both of you. You guys use NO EVIDENCE whatsoever when you try and prove a point you think I got wrong. Also, you both don't use apostrophes unless you're talking about a specific character. And you spell "necessarily" wrong.

Now onto Falcon Punch. While I used Kirby in Classic Mode, and Falcon was the first match, I got Falcon's ability, and I then combed Falcon Punch into D-Air and a few side tilts, and it killed at 48%, which even Falcon couldn't have recovered from THAT!
Next Rollout.

TSF.Strife wrote:
Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.


/\

That is pathetic. You don't even have evidence on this. Like Marth's shield break, it can stun opponents for a while, and the opponent literally stands still after he/she lands on the ground, which literally puts you at the advantage! Next, Strife Raid.

TSF|Cookies wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension. However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.

Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now you're stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edge guard.


The part I highlighted is a problem. I said that because if they're close to the blast zone and need to recover, you can easily punish them with Strife Raid until they're at high damage and fly into the blast zone. This ain't Smash 2* anymore, kid. This is SSF2 territory. (*: Smash 2 is one of the nicknames for Super Smash Bros. Melee.)

There are a few reasons on why your rant is totally worthless, Strife. Y' happy?


Someone with actual experience against human players wastes his time trying to professionally compose a debate against you. And what you do as a response is to completely disregard everything he says while unnecessarily pointing out grammatical errors, whilst proceeding to erroneously spell Strike Raid as "Strife Raid" (which goes for both parties). Hell, even said move doesn't send opponents reeling towards the horizontal blastline, and it sure ain't a vertical-based kill move either, let alone a kill move. You are literally helping your opponents recovering. Goes to show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

As a player with actual SSF2 tournament experience, anything that happens in single-player oriented modes like Classic Mode should be taken lightly, as most of your opponents are exploitable CPUs anyways. What you do to CPUs usually don't apply to competitive players, let alone human players. Take it from the person who fights the characters you've listed on a daily basis, which means I can confirm that what TSF|Cookies is trying to say is a perfectly legitimate claim.

If you want any sort of credibility on your claims, actually play against a human player who's competent at playing the game.

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:32 pm
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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
First off, you won't like me when I'm angry.

That's adorable. I honestly don't even like you to begin with and I'm really only continuing with this because I literally have nothing better to do and it's funny.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
I can make out a few similarities between both of you. You guys use NO EVIDENCE whatsoever when you try and prove a point you think I got wrong. Also, you both don't use apostrophes unless you're talking about a specific character. And you spell "necessarily" wrong.

See, the thing is, is that unlike you, we actually know what a true combo is.

Cookies is/was a pretty highly ranked player and was literally the person developing most of Chibi-Robo's metagame and I literally was like the main analyst in the Back Room, I'm currently Top 5 in my (very small) region (Swansea) for Ultimate and I used to coach people in the game via SSF2A. Because of that, I:
a. Factcheck everything to a pretty thorough degree and test DI in and out on most of my labbing s***
b. Know pretty well what actually is and isn't reactable.

Also, Cookies spells necessarily wrong because English literally isn't his first language. He's German.

You so far are also guilty of literally the same thing and your responses have been either anecdotes with no actual hard evidence and an obnoxious supply of memes. This is a case of pot calling the kettle black.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Now onto Falcon Punch. While I used Kirby in Classic Mode, and Falcon was the first match, I got Falcon's ability, and I then combed Falcon Punch into D-Air and a few side tilts, and it killed at 48%, which even Falcon couldn't have recovered from THAT!


Falcon Punch literally doesn't true combo into anything. You may have hit the Falcon Punch and then hit the Dair afterwards, but that is not a true combo. You are not guaranteed to land anything after a Falcon Punch. Just cause I like to be extra thorough with my analysis, I even TAS'd the game with an external program similar to TKG to throttle the framerate and...yeah, it's not happening. Kirby literally is not fast enough to even punish a character's missed tech with a jablock unless they actively decide to do nothing for the best part of a second. Falcon Punch also has a ridiculous amount of startup lag (according to the wiki, it's Frame 22. In a 60 FPS environment, this is roughly equivalent to the startup of Luigi's taunt). The average reaction time is 13 frames, so if we generously scale that back to the 30fps, it's around 7 frames. Not even accounting for input delay, you have plenty of time to react to this move if someone throws this out.

I will also add that you will generally want to be comboing into Falcon Punch most of the time, but it's far too slow for that to be useful, especially when Hammer is faster, disjointed and very easy to combo into.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
Yeah, except Inhale also ignores shields and allows for combos and kill confirms out of Spit/Swallow. Additionally, Jigglypuff's Rollout literally is the most telegraphed s*** in the game and literally nobody is gonna hold shield vs that. There's no reason to pick Rollout over Inhale, especially as this is a move that even Jigglypuff doesn't want.


/\

That is pathetic. You don't even have evidence on this. Like Marth's shield break, it can stun opponents for a while, and the opponent literally stands still after he/she lands on the ground, which literally puts you at the advantage!

Okay, let's bring out the frame calculator again.

According to the wiki, fully charged Rollout (aka. the one that breaks shields) takes 104 (this is ~3.5 seconds) frames to come out AT THE EARLIEST. Translate that to a 60 FPS environment and that's 208-209 frames where Jigglypuff/Kirby has to sit there, uninterrupted charging Rollout. Unless you have the reaction time of a snail, you will be able to anticipate the option of Rollout and do something about it within the three seconds that Jigglypuff/Kirby is stuck there charging. During this time, you leave yourself completely open to either the opponent:
a. Coming up to you and just hitting you out of the charge with a cross-up attack (one that hits behind you when moving forward)
b. Shooting you with a projectile
c. Moving onto a platform where Jigglypuff/Kirby literally cannot reach you.
d. Just doing nothing and reacting to the move when Jigglypuff starts moving cause it's not too fast and still bloody obvious.

So, in order for this advantage of Jigglypuff breaking shields to happen, you've got to have the following happen:
1. The opponent would need to be on the same level as you.
2. The opponent would need to be shielding.
3. The opponent would literally need to do absolutely nothing except stand there and hold shield in order for the shieldbreak to happen.

Now, this could happen. Is it likely? Absolutely not. The shieldbreak is nice if you land it, but the move itself is so s*** that you're almost never going to land it.

Also, Inhale beats shield because it's a command grab. That's literally how the game works.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
TSF|Cookies wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Also, I think I need to explain more on Sora's keyblade throw. Sora's Neutral B, like you said, is useful for ledge trapping and combo extension. However, like I said, it is also good for interfering with opponent recoveries, and if they try to recover again at the same distance, you can do it again and again until they give up and SD.

Why should they insist on trying the same recovery from the same distance over and over again if you have already demonstrated that you can and will punish that? They could easily go around it and now you're stuck in quite a bit of lag and most likely gave up the edge guard.


The part I highlighted is a problem. I said that because if they're close to the blast zone and need to recover, you can easily punish them with Strife Raid until they're at high damage and fly into the blast zone.

Hey look, this is the character that I literally developed to the point where even the NSpec is named after me (it's actually called Strike Raid)

You see, there's one extremely key part where this rant falls apart and that is that Strike Raid sends the opponent towards you to start combos. In order for it to have any gimping potential, you have to clip the recovering character with the multihits. Given that the multihits have barely any knockback scaling, and the way that the angle sends you, the only way that Strike Raid is killing anyone by "sending them flying into the blastzone" is at obscenely high percents (we're talking 700 and up) and if they DI towards Sora.

Strike Raid is also a huge commitment because Sora is stuck dabbing for a good long while, as is Kirby if he inhales him. Any character that gets clipped with the multihits will usually get the opportunity to recover again. Heck, some characters might even recover directly into the move and launch themselves back on-stage because of the fact.

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
This ain't Smash 2* anymore, kid. This is SSF2 territory. (*: Smash 2 is one of the nicknames for Super Smash Bros. Melee.)

There are a few reasons on why your rant is totally worthless, Strife. Y' happy?

First of all, yes, I'm aware this is SSF2 territory. I've been around for the best part of four years in this community. I'm definitely not a kid anymore, cause that ship sailed a while back and I'm now (what Cookies has referred to me as) a "miserable old git".

And in what way is my rant worthless? I gave you some hard evidence for the points that I just explained and anything that you think is untrue, you are more than welcome to test out yourself in a match vs some actual people, because playing vs bots on Classic Mode is not gonna get you far in learning the game.

And to be honest, I'm just bored of this. Please actually give me something interesting to debate over instead of making me respond to a kid who's so in denial over their terrible understanding of the game that they look like a chef from Kitchen Nightmares.

Or to put it one way...
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EDIT: Akabonba also hit the nail on the head 100%

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:53 pm
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imagine thinking playing against the bots provides any meaningful knowledge on the game mechanics, and then arguing that it does

stop that :pikachu:

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:06 pm
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Despite Rollout being a shieldbreaker, you can just put down the shield even in-between hits, making it lose its real functionality (they really could make it so hit-stun is increased from shielding except power-shield, so shieldbreak combos are at least a possibility)
Plus, it's a ground-only move, meaning that if there are platforms, the opponent could just sit back and wait it out (and knowing it's a Jigglypuff, she could very well just float around to wait it out too)

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Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:12 pm
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Yo, So ive been somewhat out of the loop in regards to how strong characters are now so if anyone can send a tier list or two and explain what's changed about the cast and the meta as a whole that would be lovely

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Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:31 am
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Here's my tier list, the individual rankings within each tier are less set in stone in my mind. So thinking about whether Luffy should be above Mario or Mario over Luffy wasn't really too important, I just wanted to get down the general gist of what I think the current meta is like
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Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:32 am
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Interesting to see Lloyd still in high tier after everyone complaining about the character getting axed and whatnot after the last patch initially came out.

@Psycho Funfact: Smash 2 is not a nickname for Melee, it actually is a mod of Brawl that is supposed to resemble Melee. Also please refrain from calling people almost twice your age "kid", Strife and me are both above 20 for Chibis sake

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Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:13 am
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