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Tier List Discussion
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=44805
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Author:  Dust_the_1000 [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Goku was strangely good in first patches, i was impressed why he was top tier (i think is just bthrow chain, now that no longer exists), now the nerfs are really afeccted his currently metagame, kaioken is weaker than the older patches. At least he's not the worst. (otherwise pichu does a highly irregular playstyle).

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

I think Goku got more stuffed by the actual engine itself. The projectile changes hurt his neutral because he can't deal with them too well, the grab changes hurt his neutral as well because he relies on getting very close to his opponent and he doesn't have amazing disjoints (if any) and I think that in this version, he really suffers from just everyone else being vastly improved whilst he's just not really thrived well in the engine.

(He might also have had a couple of stealth nerfs in there as well, who knows)

Author:  Dust_the_1000 [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Yeah, Goku is a trash, but Pichu is a worst thing. Most of his attacks are shorter than his clone :pikachu:, the "discharge state" thing, does an exchange of his playstyle.
In exchange of a spooky bad recovery if it's under the stage. And other things. Pichu is the WORST.

Author:  Akabonba [ Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
No U times beyond infinity

So this is what passes for discussion when we're deciding on a tier list?
Expected nothing less from the guy who offered a package of Reese's Pieces from a personal self-made tourney.
Figures why nobody on this board takes you seriously and why all the actual discussion is on the Discord.

Author:  Vanilla [ Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Good thing psycho is not in the mg discord lmao

and hopefully no one give him the invite link to said discord

Author:  finallyfantastic7 [ Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

what discord? there isn't one

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

/\

Yeah, I don't remember there being an SSF2 Discord. There's a Facebook account, a YouTube Channel, the website itself, and a Twitter account. Anyways, back to the topic, I made an SSF2 Kirby Copy Ability Tier List which is similar to Pmorken's tier list, but in my own view.

Attachment:
SSF2 Kirby Copy Ability Tier List.PNG
SSF2 Kirby Copy Ability Tier List.PNG [ 215.04 KiB | Viewed 389 times ]


The fact that Fox's lasers are faster than Falco's just saved him from being on the bottom of the list.

Also, I forgot to put Puff on the list, but she would be in B tier along with Marth.

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

It'd be wishful thinking to think any of this will be taken on board, but I'm just going to leave everything here again because it all still applies.
TSF.Strife wrote:
Fox's blaster is insanely good in neutral because it forces the opponent to approach Fox. Sure, someone else can charge their attack or something, but by the time they've finished, they've already taken an insane amount of damage and they've got to come to Fox to stop him from doing it cause a lot of projectiles can just be reflected on reaction if they're still trying to camp.

Fox's blaster should be in A tier at worst because it's still an incredible move.

Here's a couple more takes:
- Pit and Bandana Dee need to move down at least one tier. Pit's projectile only really improves his edgeguarding (which is already good) and makes his neutral above average whilst PAC-MAN's and Falco's makes his neutral incredible. Heck, PAC-MAN's power should probably go above Falco's honestly. Bandana Dee's also just isn't that good compared to the other powers in that tier as it neither significantly improves his neutral like Mega Man's, Samus' or Meta Knights, nor does it grant him insane punish options like Luffy's or Black Mage's
- Lloyd, Luigi and maybe Mario need to move up to A Tier. Having something that can contest Luigi's fireballs makes the Luigi MU much better, whilst Kirby basically has 1.0.3.2 Demon Fang with less range, and it improves both his neutral and punish game by quite a lot. Mario's fireball is also just really solid.
- Chibi-Robo should also move up just cause it's basically a worse Falco laser.
- Tails really should go back into A Tier just because of how stupid it's shield damage is.
- Captain Falcon belongs in D Tier. Yeah, sure. Kirby's Falcon Punch is faster, but it's still objectively worse than Inhale, especially as Falcon is combo food for Kirby and Falcon Punch doesn't synergise with Kirby's kit. Heck, even Hammer does a better job of being Falcon Punch than this move.
- Sandbag needs to move down as well. It's way too slow to be of any use.



EDIT: I'm just gonna leave my own take here. The value of each power was placed on how much it benefitted specific aspects of Kirby's kit and how well it synergised with Kirby's kit as a whole.
Image

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

/\

I know you have your own opinion on Captain Falcon's placement and I can agree with that. But I still think that he should be in A-Tier, because even with Kirby's worse knockback with his version of Falcon Punch, it is faster, more deadly (it does 9% more damage than Falcon's) and... well, I'll have martial artist Doug Marcaida say this...

YouTube Video:


…but that's not the end of the oddities I found on this list, there is a few more suggestions I'd like to point out.

1. :metaknight:: Meta Knight can move up to S-Tier, as his Mach Tornado has a good amount of range needed to recover, and it can rapid combo as well.

2. :zerosuitsamus: & :sora:: ZSS and Sora have to move up to A-Tier. I'm okay with where you placed them, but ZSS should probably be behind Samus at best, because of how the Paralyzer works like Falco's laser, but it's yellow and moves a bit slower. Sora's neutral B can also interfere with opponent recoveries, so he should be up at A-Tier as well. Otherwise, not too bad of a tier.

3. :chibirobo:: Chibi-Robo could move down to B-Tier. Sure, it's not that bad of a move, but it's basically a better Tails Energy Ball Blaster, but a worse ZSS Paralyzer. Still, not too bad of an A-Tier otherwise.

4. :bomberman: & [Pichu]: Bomberman and Pichu can move up to B-Tier, as Kirby's version of Bomberman's Neutral B can interfere with opponent recoveries, and with the exception of self-damage, Pichu's Neutral B is more powerful than Pikachu's.

5. :peach: & :zelda:: Peach and Zelda can move down a tier. Sure, Zelda's neutral B can block projectiles, but that's the only good thing about it. Also, Peach's neutral B is totally useless, because you need to have perfect timing in order to have the move hit!

Author:  CraftGMC [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Kirby's version of Falcon Punch does 9% more damage than Falcon's

YouTube Video:

Image

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

YouTube Video:

Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

oh dear lord
is this the new meme you're gonna be spamming all over the forums?

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

No. I'm just putting it there because both versions of Falcon Punch can kill.

Author:  RDash75 [ Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Heres Mine.

Sorry The File is Too BIG! So I Put some Words!
======================================
Tier List:
S :metaknight: :pikachu: :marth: :tails:
A :ichigo: :mario: :fox: :samus: :falco: :sheik:
B :captainfalcon: :pacman: :link: :pit: :goku: :lloyd: :bandanadee: :ness:
C :zerosuitsamus: :isaac: :sora: :megaman: :kirby: :zelda: :yoshi: :peach: :blackmage: Z/S
D :chibirobo: :wario: :bowser: :sandbag: :gameandwatch: :donkeykong: :luigi: Pichu :luffy: :jigglypuff: :bomberman: :naruto: :sonic:
NOT IN THIS VERSON :simon: :krystal: :rayman:

Author:  Pmorken [ Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

TSF.Strife wrote:
It'd be wishful thinking to think any of this will be taken on board, but I'm just going to leave everything here again because it all still applies.
TSF.Strife wrote:
Fox's blaster is insanely good in neutral because it forces the opponent to approach Fox. Sure, someone else can charge their attack or something, but by the time they've finished, they've already taken an insane amount of damage and they've got to come to Fox to stop him from doing it cause a lot of projectiles can just be reflected on reaction if they're still trying to camp.

Fox's blaster should be in A tier at worst because it's still an incredible move.

Here's a couple more takes:
- Pit and Bandana Dee need to move down at least one tier. Pit's projectile only really improves his edgeguarding (which is already good) and makes his neutral above average whilst PAC-MAN's and Falco's makes his neutral incredible. Heck, PAC-MAN's power should probably go above Falco's honestly. Bandana Dee's also just isn't that good compared to the other powers in that tier as it neither significantly improves his neutral like Mega Man's, Samus' or Meta Knights, nor does it grant him insane punish options like Luffy's or Black Mage's
- Lloyd, Luigi and maybe Mario need to move up to A Tier. Having something that can contest Luigi's fireballs makes the Luigi MU much better, whilst Kirby basically has 1.0.3.2 Demon Fang with less range, and it improves both his neutral and punish game by quite a lot. Mario's fireball is also just really solid.
- Chibi-Robo should also move up just cause it's basically a worse Falco laser.
- Tails really should go back into A Tier just because of how stupid it's shield damage is.
- Captain Falcon belongs in D Tier. Yeah, sure. Kirby's Falcon Punch is faster, but it's still objectively worse than Inhale, especially as Falcon is combo food for Kirby and Falcon Punch doesn't synergise with Kirby's kit. Heck, even Hammer does a better job of being Falcon Punch than this move.
- Sandbag needs to move down as well. It's way too slow to be of any use.



EDIT: I'm just gonna leave my own take here. The value of each power was placed on how much it benefitted specific aspects of Kirby's kit and how well it synergised with Kirby's kit as a whole.
Image

Could you elaborate on why you believe G&W is above Peach? In my eyes, Chef simply doesn't help any aspect of Kirby besides his edgeguarding, and even then, edgeguarding a G&W is quite easy for Kirby and he doesn't ever need to use Chef. In Peach's case, her ability is essentially a counter (that works more often than Marth's) and using it in the air for the first time will send Kirby upwards, which means that he can use it to recover while being protected by Toad.

(Also, how are you making your tier lists? Yours are a lot cleaner looking than mine.)

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