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Tier List Discussion
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=44805
Page 47 of 54

Author:  Broly [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

CraftGMC wrote:
Kirby falcon punches faster than Captain Falcon himself (and he still deals the same damage AND knockback) with the drawback of somewhat less range, so i suppose it could go to somewhere in B-tier


YouTube Video:

Author:  Pmorken [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

With the feedback I have received, I've updated the Kirby Ability tier list accordingly. Here is the new list. This time, there is a hierarchy within a tier (e.g. Captain Falcon's ability > Sandbag's ability).
Image
I'll go over certain characters of interest below.

:pit: I think this ability belongs at the top. Palutena Bow massively benefits Kirby as it grants him a safe and long-range projectile that can be directed anywhere on the map, which makes his below average neutral game into an above average one.

:metaknight: While I don't think this ability belongs in S-tier, I had underestimated its usage as a potential recovery option and only considered its use as an attack. It gives him a horizontal recovery option when Kirby's out of jumps and is relatively safe while in the tornado.

:blackmage: I forgot about storing Stop's charge, and he has risen a significant amount because of it.

:captainfalcon: Since Kirby's version of the Falcon Punch is faster and just as strong, Falcon has gone up a tier. Since Kirby already has a powerful kill move with high startup lag (Hammer Flip), this isn't the most beneficial thing ever, but it still has its uses.

:tails: His projectile just isn't as good as the others in A-tier due to its high startup lag and very low knockback growth.

:fox: While Fox's Blaster doesn't cause as much damage as Falco's Blaster and doesn't cause opponents to flinch (and, let's be honest here, Fox's Blaster is way worse than Falco's), Fox's Blaster does boast one thing over Falco's, which is speed. A few shots from across the stage with 1-3% damage per shot can add up quite fast.

:jigglypuff: Since this ability can break shields at any charge, Jigglypuff goes up a tier, but only just. This is a very situational instance in which Rollout might be useful seeing as it's a shield break ability against Puff but really, this won't happen often in a match and there's a better ability that also breaks shields (Marth).

:zelda: This ability might work well against certain opponents, but against a Zelda this ability just isn't good. It might be useful in punishing a missed tech, but that's about the extent of its usefulness against her.

:gameandwatch: Good for only one thing; edgeguarding cheese. Kirby is already good at edgeguarding so this barely helps him at all.

Any criticism/feedback would be much appreciated.

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Well, at least Falcon Punch can actually cause DAMAGE! Fox's Laser only does 1% "damage," so it looks like Fox's laser is more useless than Falcon Punch, which can actually do damage close to 50%!

Image
Fox's blaster is insanely good in neutral because it forces the opponent to approach Fox. Sure, someone else can charge their attack or something, but by the time they've finished, they've already taken an insane amount of damage and they've got to come to Fox to stop him from doing it cause a lot of projectiles can just be reflected on reaction if they're still trying to camp.

Fox's blaster should be in A tier at worst because it's still an incredible move.

Here's a couple more takes:
- Pit and Bandana Dee need to move down at least one tier. Pit's projectile only really improves his edgeguarding (which is already good) and makes his neutral above average whilst PAC-MAN's and Falco's makes his neutral incredible. Heck, PAC-MAN's power should probably go above Falco's honestly. Bandana Dee's also just isn't that good compared to the other powers in that tier as it neither significantly improves his neutral like Mega Man's, Samus' or Meta Knights, nor does it grant him insane punish options like Luffy's or Black Mage's
- Lloyd, Luigi and maybe Mario need to move up to A Tier. Having something that can contest Luigi's fireballs makes the Luigi MU much better, whilst Kirby basically has 1.0.3.2 Demon Fang with less range, and it improves both his neutral and punish game by quite a lot. Mario's fireball is also just really solid.
- Chibi-Robo should also move up just cause it's basically a worse Falco laser.
- Tails really should go back into A Tier just because of how stupid it's shield damage is.
- Pichu does not belong in D Tier. Self damage aside, it's still basically a slightly worse ZSS neutral-B and it has use in granting Kirby kill confirms.
- Captain Falcon belongs in D Tier. Yeah, sure. Kirby's Falcon Punch is faster, but it's still objectively worse than Inhale, especially as Falcon is combo food for Kirby and Falcon Punch doesn't synergise with Kirby's kit. Heck, even Hammer does a better job of being Falcon Punch than this move.
- Sandbag needs to move down as well. It's way too slow to be of any use.

Author:  Dust_the_1000 [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Time to polish up the discussion.
New tier list incoming
Image

Author:  Broly [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Good job! Only one thing though: You forgot C Tier.

Author:  Broly [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

TSF.Strife wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Well, at least Falcon Punch can actually cause DAMAGE! Fox's Laser only does 1% "damage," so it looks like Fox's laser is more useless than Falcon Punch, which can actually do damage close to 50%!

Image
Fox's blaster is insanely good in neutral because it forces the opponent to approach Fox. Sure, someone else can charge their attack or something, but by the time they've finished, they've already taken an insane amount of damage and they've got to come to Fox to stop him from doing it cause a lot of projectiles can just be reflected on reaction if they're still trying to camp.

Fox's blaster should be in A tier at worst because it's still an incredible move.

Here's a couple more takes:
- Pit and Bandana Dee need to move down at least one tier. Pit's projectile only really improves his edgeguarding (which is already good) and makes his neutral above average whilst PAC-MAN's and Falco's makes his neutral incredible. Heck, PAC-MAN's power should probably go above Falco's honestly. Bandana Dee's also just isn't that good compared to the other powers in that tier as it neither significantly improves his neutral like Mega Man's, Samus' or Meta Knights, nor does it grant him insane punish options like Luffy's or Black Mage's
- Lloyd, Luigi and maybe Mario need to move up to A Tier. Having something that can contest Luigi's fireballs makes the Luigi MU much better, whilst Kirby basically has 1.0.3.2 Demon Fang with less range, and it improves both his neutral and punish game by quite a lot. Mario's fireball is also just really solid.
- Chibi-Robo should also move up just cause it's basically a worse Falco laser.
- Tails really should go back into A Tier just because of how stupid it's shield damage is.
- Pichu does not belong in D Tier. Self damage aside, it's still basically a slightly worse ZSS neutral-B and it has use in granting Kirby kill confirms.
- Captain Falcon belongs in D Tier. Yeah, sure. Kirby's Falcon Punch is faster, but it's still objectively worse than Inhale, especially as Falcon is combo food for Kirby and Falcon Punch doesn't synergise with Kirby's kit. Heck, even Hammer does a better job of being Falcon Punch than this move.
- Sandbag needs to move down as well. It's way too slow to be of any use.


YouTube Video:


Pmorken and I are fine with how his current tier list is! Heck, he even admitted that Fox's laser is worse than Falco's! Also, about your Captain Falcon rant...

Image

Kirby's Falcon Punch may do the same amount of damage as Falcon's but, like you said, it's faster AND it also has more knockback! So take your stupid rants, and take them somewhere else, because Pichu is trash in this game and is Top Tier in Smash Ultimate, and you know it.

YouTube Video:

Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

PsychoSSF2 wrote:
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3D-rKId38Q ]

Pmorken and I are fine with how his current tier list is! Heck, he even admitted that Fox's laser is worse than Falco's! Also, about your Captain Falcon rant...

[ Image ]

Kirby's Falcon Punch may do the same amount of damage as Falcon's but, like you said, it's faster AND it also has more knockback! So take your stupid rants, and take them somewhere else, because Pichu is trash in this game and is Top Tier in Smash Ultimate, and you know it.

[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o ]

YouTube Video:

Author:  Broly [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

bagrielmarmanjo wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3D-rKId38Q ]

Pmorken and I are fine with how his current tier list is! Heck, he even admitted that Fox's laser is worse than Falco's! Also, about your Captain Falcon rant...

[ Image ]

Kirby's Falcon Punch may do the same amount of damage as Falcon's but, like you said, it's faster AND it also has more knockback! So take your stupid rants, and take them somewhere else, because Pichu is trash in this game and is Top Tier in Smash Ultimate, and you know it.

[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o ]

YouTube Video:


Attachments:
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Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

no w

Author:  Broly [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

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No wwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

no wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

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Author:  Broly [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

No U times beyond infinity

Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

no u infinity+10 googols
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what did i.jpg [ 40.8 KiB | Viewed 392 times ]


now get back to talking about characters and tiers

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Psycho quotes because this is gonna get silly: show
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
Well, at least Falcon Punch can actually cause DAMAGE! Fox's Laser only does 1% "damage," so it looks like Fox's laser is more useless than Falcon Punch, which can actually do damage close to 50%!

Image
Fox's blaster is insanely good in neutral because it forces the opponent to approach Fox. Sure, someone else can charge their attack or something, but by the time they've finished, they've already taken an insane amount of damage and they've got to come to Fox to stop him from doing it cause a lot of projectiles can just be reflected on reaction if they're still trying to camp.

Fox's blaster should be in A tier at worst because it's still an incredible move.

Here's a couple more takes:
- Pit and Bandana Dee need to move down at least one tier. Pit's projectile only really improves his edgeguarding (which is already good) and makes his neutral above average whilst PAC-MAN's and Falco's makes his neutral incredible. Heck, PAC-MAN's power should probably go above Falco's honestly. Bandana Dee's also just isn't that good compared to the other powers in that tier as it neither significantly improves his neutral like Mega Man's, Samus' or Meta Knights, nor does it grant him insane punish options like Luffy's or Black Mage's
- Lloyd, Luigi and maybe Mario need to move up to A Tier. Having something that can contest Luigi's fireballs makes the Luigi MU much better, whilst Kirby basically has 1.0.3.2 Demon Fang with less range, and it improves both his neutral and punish game by quite a lot. Mario's fireball is also just really solid.
- Chibi-Robo should also move up just cause it's basically a worse Falco laser.
- Tails really should go back into A Tier just because of how stupid it's shield damage is.
- Pichu does not belong in D Tier. Self damage aside, it's still basically a slightly worse ZSS neutral-B and it has use in granting Kirby kill confirms.
- Captain Falcon belongs in D Tier. Yeah, sure. Kirby's Falcon Punch is faster, but it's still objectively worse than Inhale, especially as Falcon is combo food for Kirby and Falcon Punch doesn't synergise with Kirby's kit. Heck, even Hammer does a better job of being Falcon Punch than this move.
- Sandbag needs to move down as well. It's way too slow to be of any use.


YouTube Video:


Pmorken and I are fine with how his current tier list is! Heck, he even admitted that Fox's laser is worse than Falco's! Also, about your Captain Falcon rant...

Image

Kirby's Falcon Punch may do the same amount of damage as Falcon's but, like you said, it's faster AND it also has more knockback! So take your stupid rants, and take them somewhere else, because Pichu is trash in this game and is Top Tier in Smash Ultimate, and you know it.

YouTube Video:

Alright, so, you're speaking for the dude without him being there. Alright.

If you're gonna try and contest something I've said, please come up with some actual points. You literally only responded with memes and a point that I literally already covered and glossed over everything else, instead just resorting to a generally unnecessarily hostile response and an array of memes.

This is why nobody takes anything you say seriously and/or thinks you're a postwhore. I'll be quite happy to continue this debate with you if you actually have something of value to say.

EDIT: I actually ran some tests, and Kirby's Falcon Punch actually has worse knockback than Captain Falcon's and exactly the same damage. It only beats Captain Falcon's on frame data and from the same spot on Waiting Room (the rightmost spawnpoint), tested on Captain Falcon, Falcon's starts killing at 32% whereas Kirby's starts killing at 41%.

Now for some actual tier listy things
Dust_the_1000 wrote:
Time to polish up the discussion.
New tier list incoming
[ Image ]

This is actually remarkably close to my own list. Only thing I'd honestly say is that Marth could slightly move down and Goku should be at worst IMHO, but I can't really fault too much with this. Good s***.

Author:  bagrielmarmanjo [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

why did goku get so bad

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