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Tier List Discussion
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=44805
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Author:  playridise [ Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

BandanaDeeMain wrote:
Playridise, bottom of bottom 15 IS 25th.


14th/15th worst is probz top 25.

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

BandanaDeeMain wrote:
[ Image ] New tier list
Also I will defend BDee and say why I think he is top 25. (rant begin) Bandana Dee has a lot of good tools.

His nair in particular is basically Smash Ultimate Palutena nair which is really scary.
T: It really isn't. Ultimate Palutena's Nair doesn't have problems with people falling out of the move, nor does it have problems with SDI or it hitting the opponent backwards and causing the combo to drop completely. Bandana Dee's Nair is also active for a much shorter time and part of what makes the move scary is Palutena actually has the mobility to capitalise off her Nair in a meaningful way. Bandana Dee doesn't have this. See below.

He has great mobility as well.
T: Actually, most of his air attributes and ground attributes are 1:1 ripped from Kirby. His mobility is almost exactly the same as Kirby's. Kirby's mobility is one of it's biggest flaws because of how slow he is. In fact, Kirby's air speed (6.2) is actually faster than Bandana Dee's air speed (5.8). Bandana Dee's mobility really isn't good, in fact, it's actually quite bad.

His two projectiles are great.
Neutral-B can be used as a defensive option against swordies and approaches as well as a half-decent projectile.
Side-B does have bad lag but is really obnoxious as an edgeguarding/gimping tool.
T: Well, actually. Neutral-B's non projectile hitbox is actually much better because you can get more damage off it and it can even set up for some decent aerial combos. Wave Beam (charged neutral-b) actually has a pretty poor amount of range and isn't particularly threatening because Bandana Dee can't actually use it well for edgeguarding nor does he get any real reward off it. If I'm fighting a Bandana Dee at max-range with Bowser, I'm not even remotely scared. I'll just run and fireball while he's charging. Side-B is actually really only good for annoying people offstage because it doesn't really provide much of a threat to the recovering opponent at all. It sends opponent's vertically a lot of the time and I'm probably just going to recover anyway.

Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight.
Nair, Bair, Side-B, Neutral-B, Fair, Dair, posiibly even down-B can all be used to great effect to gimp. Bair in particular is an amazing move (probs because it's Brawl Dedede's Bair) for edguarding.
He can even do the Fence of Pain.
T: Nair sends up and away which is less scary for edgeguarding plus it has poor range. I already detailed all my gripes with Side-B as an edgeguarding tool, Neutral B also exclusively sends vertically so that's also a huge pain in the arse if you're trying to edgeguard. Whilst I will agree with you that Bair, Fair and Dair are good edgeguard tools, you're definitely overselling this character's edgeguarding.

And he can kill. I killed Mario with Bair at 80%. UAir kills around there, as does Up-B. He also has incredible throws. F-THrow is a suicide throw, D-Throw is a kill throw, U-Throw is a combo starter, and B-THrow is a good way to put the opponent in an edgeguarding situation. Combine all this with some great smash attacks and tilts, and you have a good character. However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. Bandana tho beats Bowser and DK for one reason. He is tiny. Bandana Dee can just Nair them to high percents very quickly. Bandana Dee is a definite high tier. (rant end)

T: So much misinformation here. For a start, Bair only kills Mario at 80% at the edge of the stage with the worst possible DI. Tested on Waiting Room, neither Up Air nor Up-B kill Mario off the top anywhere near 80% at the peak of Mario's double jump. Furthermore, his throws aren't that good. Uthrow's a very weak combo starter and he can't really get much outside of Up Air and he certainly can't get many kills off it. Forward Throw is a better combo starter, but you're still only getting Fair or Beam Whip off it which are both enders so the application's a bit limited, plus the suicide throw is inconsistent in last stock situations. Down Throw is a very weak kill throw as well and Back Throw has pretty limited applications in edgeguarding cause you can DI away and avoid the followup. You also say that his smash attacks and tilts are great, but honestly, the only "great" smash attacks and tilts he has realistically are Up Tilt and Up Smash. Forward Tilt's pretty meh, Jab's inconsistent, Down Tilt is unsafe and unrewarding, Forward Smash is pretty meh and Down Smash isn't that good of a kill move. Dash Attack is also very unsafe a lot of the time, but granted, it's much better than before.

Bandana Dee sure as hell also doesn't beat the heavies. Both of them have very solid kill confirms that'll kill Bandana Dee about 70% earlier than Bandana Dee can kill Bowser/DK, and Bowser actually has the method to force Bandana Dee to approach him as well. The heavies also outrange a lot of Bandana Dee's normals and have disjoints of their own. BDee really can only win offstage vs them, but considering Bandana Dee lost to both of them in the last demo and Bowser's only got better...yeah. Dee/Bowser is like 40:60 Bowser favour and DK is like 45:55 DK favour.

You are correct that Bandana Dee does struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. His recovery is bad and he's extremely light.


Bandana Dee is low tier, I'm sorry to disappoint you.

There's a lot of other issues with your list, but I feel like this needed addressing first.



Also, Pichu > Goku. Pichu at least has a gameplan. Goku doesn't

Author:  Dust_the_1000 [ Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

I forgot to mention Goku and Pichu are tied in my tier list, being the worst characters.

Author:  playridise [ Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

TSF.Strife wrote:
BandanaDeeMain wrote:
[ Image ] New tier list
Also I will defend BDee and say why I think he is top 25. (rant begin) Bandana Dee has a lot of good tools.

His nair in particular is basically Smash Ultimate Palutena nair which is really scary.
T: It really isn't. Ultimate Palutena's Nair doesn't have problems with people falling out of the move, nor does it have problems with SDI or it hitting the opponent backwards and causing the combo to drop completely. Bandana Dee's Nair is also active for a much shorter time and part of what makes the move scary is Palutena actually has the mobility to capitalise off her Nair in a meaningful way. Bandana Dee doesn't have this. See below.

He has great mobility as well.
T: Actually, most of his air attributes and ground attributes are 1:1 ripped from Kirby. His mobility is almost exactly the same as Kirby's. Kirby's mobility is one of it's biggest flaws because of how slow he is. In fact, Kirby's air speed (6.2) is actually faster than Bandana Dee's air speed (5.8). Bandana Dee's mobility really isn't good, in fact, it's actually quite bad.

His two projectiles are great.
Neutral-B can be used as a defensive option against swordies and approaches as well as a half-decent projectile.
Side-B does have bad lag but is really obnoxious as an edgeguarding/gimping tool.
T: Well, actually. Neutral-B's non projectile hitbox is actually much better because you can get more damage off it and it can even set up for some decent aerial combos. Wave Beam (charged neutral-b) actually has a pretty poor amount of range and isn't particularly threatening because Bandana Dee can't actually use it well for edgeguarding nor does he get any real reward off it. If I'm fighting a Bandana Dee at max-range with Bowser, I'm not even remotely scared. I'll just run and fireball while he's charging. Side-B is actually really only good for annoying people offstage because it doesn't really provide much of a threat to the recovering opponent at all. It sends opponent's vertically a lot of the time and I'm probably just going to recover anyway.

Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight.
Nair, Bair, Side-B, Neutral-B, Fair, Dair, posiibly even down-B can all be used to great effect to gimp. Bair in particular is an amazing move (probs because it's Brawl Dedede's Bair) for edguarding.
He can even do the Fence of Pain.
T: Nair sends up and away which is less scary for edgeguarding plus it has poor range. I already detailed all my gripes with Side-B as an edgeguarding tool, Neutral B also exclusively sends vertically so that's also a huge pain in the arse if you're trying to edgeguard. Whilst I will agree with you that Bair, Fair and Dair are good edgeguard tools, you're definitely overselling this character's edgeguarding.

And he can kill. I killed Mario with Bair at 80%. UAir kills around there, as does Up-B. He also has incredible throws. F-THrow is a suicide throw, D-Throw is a kill throw, U-Throw is a combo starter, and B-THrow is a good way to put the opponent in an edgeguarding situation. Combine all this with some great smash attacks and tilts, and you have a good character. However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. Bandana tho beats Bowser and DK for one reason. He is tiny. Bandana Dee can just Nair them to high percents very quickly. Bandana Dee is a definite high tier. (rant end)

T: So much misinformation here. For a start, Bair only kills Mario at 80% at the edge of the stage with the worst possible DI. Tested on Waiting Room, neither Up Air nor Up-B kill Mario off the top anywhere near 80% at the peak of Mario's double jump. Furthermore, his throws aren't that good. Uthrow's a very weak combo starter and he can't really get much outside of Up Air and he certainly can't get many kills off it. Forward Throw is a better combo starter, but you're still only getting Fair or Beam Whip off it which are both enders so the application's a bit limited, plus the suicide throw is inconsistent in last stock situations. Down Throw is a very weak kill throw as well and Back Throw has pretty limited applications in edgeguarding cause you can DI away and avoid the followup. You also say that his smash attacks and tilts are great, but honestly, the only "great" smash attacks and tilts he has realistically are Up Tilt and Up Smash. Forward Tilt's pretty meh, Jab's inconsistent, Down Tilt is unsafe and unrewarding, Forward Smash is pretty meh and Down Smash isn't that good of a kill move. Dash Attack is also very unsafe a lot of the time, but granted, it's much better than before.

Bandana Dee sure as hell also doesn't beat the heavies. Both of them have very solid kill confirms that'll kill Bandana Dee about 70% earlier than Bandana Dee can kill Bowser/DK, and Bowser actually has the method to force Bandana Dee to approach him as well. The heavies also outrange a lot of Bandana Dee's normals and have disjoints of their own. BDee really can only win offstage vs them, but considering Bandana Dee lost to both of them in the last demo and Bowser's only got better...yeah. Dee/Bowser is like 40:60 Bowser favour and DK is like 45:55 DK favour.

You are correct that Bandana Dee does struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. His recovery is bad and he's extremely light.


Bandana Dee is low tier, I'm sorry to disappoint you.

There's a lot of other issues with your list, but I feel like this needed addressing first.



Also, Pichu > Goku. Pichu at least has a gameplan. Goku doesn't


Yea, I responded to him as well. But Goku is def better than Pichu. At least Goku has actual kill power and an actual advantage state once he gets that neutral conversion. Pichu doesn't even work as a glass cannon while goku can lmao.

Author:  Dust_the_1000 [ Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

I decided to put Shielda because she is in the maker, and the reason Shielda is the best character is, Sheik combos with guaranted Zelda attack.

Author:  gamieTG [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

This is my dumb little tier list, from my experience fighting lvl. 9 cpus (i dont have good wifi connection darn it.)
Judge this however you like, i'd appreciate it.

Attachments:
dumb 1.1 tier list.jpg
dumb 1.1 tier list.jpg [ 82.6 KiB | Viewed 703 times ]

Author:  TSF.Strife [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

For exclusively fighting Lv 9 CPUs, this isn't an awful list, however, there's a couple of things that are very noticeably wrong.

- Marth, DK and Tails don't belong in S Tier. Heck, I wouldn't even say Link does either.
- A Tier honestly isn't bad, I'd move Fox and Sora down to B but that's it. Falco, Pac and Luigi would go up to S as well.
- Peach and Sheik need to move up to S Tier. They're mad good. Bandana Dee also needs to go down to C+ and Mega Man can move down a tier.
- Black Mage and Isaac are way too high and Zelda is too low. Otherwise, this isn't really too bad of a tier.
- Samus's has the only completely wrong placement (outside of BDee/Isaac). She belongs in A/B+. Wario, Luffy and Kirby can move up to B or B+ but that's really it.
- Sandbag and Naruto can move up a tier but otherwise this isn't too bad.

Author:  gamieTG [ Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Thanks Strife ;) .

Author:  Uffda [ Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

mk is bad 2019
Image
nvm idk how the forum works

Author:  Lermonz [ Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Uffda wrote:
nvm idk how the forum works

go to a topic and talk about the topic it's really not that hard to understand

Author:  Pmorken [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

So I haven't seen anyone else make a tier list on the usefulness of Kirby hats so here's my own take.

Image

Since I'm not the most knowledgeable on Kirby MUs and seeing as this is my first post here, I'd greatly appreciate feedback.
There is no hierarchy within a tier (e.g. Bowser's ability isn't necessarily better than Meta Knight's).

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Pmorken wrote:
So I haven't seen anyone else make a tier list on the usefulness of Kirby hats so here's my own take.

[ Image ]

Since I'm not the most knowledgeable on Kirby MUs and seeing as this is my first post here, I'd greatly appreciate feedback.
There is no hierarchy within a tier (e.g. Bowser's ability isn't necessarily better than Meta Knight's).


@Pmorken So, I think this tier list is good, but there are a few suggestions I have.

1. You didn't really have to make a tier above S Tier.
2. Pit doesn't belong in S-Tier, probably A-Tier or B-Tier at best. Otherwise, this isn't too bad.
3. Tails should move down to B-Tier, and Fox should move down to D-Tier, as Fox's Blaster doesn't stun opponents like Falco does and it just allows him to make the opponent mad.
4. Meta Knight should be in S-Tier, his Neutral Special allows him to recover.
5. Falcon should be in A-Tier, but otherwise, not too bad of a tier.
6. G&W should move up a tier, but not too bad otherwise.

Author:  LaMe_Xipper [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

I Would Say That He Got Both Falcon Punch And Fox Lasers Right Lasers Can Force Your Opponent To Be Aggressive Or Take Damage Falcon Punch Is Pretty Useless

Author:  Ultimate Boyo Incoming [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Well, at least Falcon Punch can actually cause DAMAGE! Fox's Laser only does 1% "damage," so it looks like Fox's laser is more useless than Falcon Punch, which can actually do damage close to 50%!

Author:  CraftGMC [ Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tier List Discussion

Kirby falcon punches faster than Captain Falcon himself (and he still deals the same damage AND knockback) with the drawback of somewhat less range, so i suppose it could go to somewhere in B-tier

Black Mage's ability can be shield-cancelled to store the charge, thus making it an excellent punish weapon that can force your opponent to take the strongest possible blows Kirby can offer, two charges are enough to punish with a SideB (grounded or aerial) if you're quick enough. should go to A-Tier or high B-Tier
one thing i've noticed is that kirby still ends up going "Castlevania Mode" when using this NeutralB - his air movement ignores deceleration and you can't change his direction or speed

Jigglypuff's Rollout (even uncharged if you're close enough) is a shieldbreaker, holding down opposite directions to make kirby go back and forth in the same spot will quickly deplete the opponent's shield, forcing them to take the hit, otherwise they'll get a shieldbreak and be stunned

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