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Tier List Discussion 
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Lermonz wrote:
Akabonba wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that nobody in this thread has ever fought a competent Bomberman before.
And no, don't say you fought against OriginalJoey.

I've fought you. You're a great Bomberman. But he's still not a very good character. I'd say mid-low tier, not because he's necessarily bad, but everyone else is just better.


I'll take it. Better than a lot of things people have said here.

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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:05 pm
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The thing with Bomberman is that he's got Little Mac syndrome hard, and on top of that, his particular brand of neutral is stuffed by a meta that encourages the use of standard projectiles.

Yes, he can force 50/50's on-stage with his bombs, but if your opponent has any good projectile, they can very easily stop you from setting up. Yes, he has a pretty decent set of normals, but grab is such a powerful option that it's not in his interests to try and get close to people due to how abysmal his disadvantage state is. Yes, he's got a pretty decent grab game, but he also has a really poor grab range and you're not gonna be in any advantage if you get throw teched because the implementation of throw teching in this game is fundamentally non-functional. Finally, the biggest nail in the coffin for him (and incidentally, the reason why he always sat in lower high tier in 1.0.3.2) is that his recovery is effectively Little Mac tier, even after getting his airspeed from 9b. Sure, he can drift, but any competent edgeguarder is not going to let you back onto the stage because they're gonna try and force you into using Up-B as it's your only option.

The meta itself screws Bomberman over. He doesn't massively benefit from the overall changes (grabs and projectiles), other characters who DO benefit from these changes who Bomberman used to beat have either got better or have now got more tools to deal with Bomberman, and it really doesn't help him now that his recovery is actually worse because of trades and the hitbox nerfs to his Up-B, which in turn, makes the character who sets up and forces 50/50s on-stage with his Bombs as a core part of his neutral wildly more inconsistent.

Bomberman ordinarily would be a good character anywhere else. If you put 1.1 Bomberman in 1.0.3.2, he'd probably move up in the high tier significantly BUT the 1.1 meta does not help Bomberman even a little bit, which is why he drops down so much. Heck, I can't remember who it was, but there was a Bomberman defender who shared his matchup chart in order to say he wasn't low tier but then ended up showing that he almost certainly was if the chart was anything to go by.

Now, as for whether or not I think Bomberman is low tier, I feel like anywhere from low-mid to the top of low tier (so 28th to 34th on my list) is a pretty good spot for Bomberman to be. The problem with low tier in this particular demo is that there are very few characters who are actually bad so mid tier dips heavily into the bottom 10.

(Funnily enough, I've spoken about 1.0.3.2 so much, but I remember that we never finished the second 1.0.3.2 tier list)

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:26 am
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Lol who you are talking to is the person who made the MU chart

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:21 am
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
Lol who you are talking to is the person who made the MU chart

lol

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
Lol who you are talking to is the person who made the MU chart

Oh lmao. But yeah, point still stands.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:07 am
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TSF.Strife wrote:
The thing with Bomberman is that he's got Little Mac syndrome hard, and on top of that, his particular brand of neutral is stuffed by a meta that encourages the use of standard projectiles.

Yes, he can force 50/50's on-stage with his bombs, but if your opponent has any good projectile, they can very easily stop you from setting up. Yes, he has a pretty decent set of normals, but grab is such a powerful option that it's not in his interests to try and get close to people due to how abysmal his disadvantage state is. Yes, he's got a pretty decent grab game, but he also has a really poor grab range and you're not gonna be in any advantage if you get throw teched because the implementation of throw teching in this game is fundamentally non-functional. Finally, the biggest nail in the coffin for him (and incidentally, the reason why he always sat in lower high tier in 1.0.3.2) is that his recovery is effectively Little Mac tier, even after getting his airspeed from 9b. Sure, he can drift, but any competent edgeguarder is not going to let you back onto the stage because they're gonna try and force you into using Up-B as it's your only option.

The meta itself screws Bomberman over. He doesn't massively benefit from the overall changes (grabs and projectiles), other characters who DO benefit from these changes who Bomberman used to beat have either got better or have now got more tools to deal with Bomberman, and it really doesn't help him now that his recovery is actually worse because of trades and the hitbox nerfs to his Up-B, which in turn, makes the character who sets up and forces 50/50s on-stage with his Bombs as a core part of his neutral wildly more inconsistent.

Bomberman ordinarily would be a good character anywhere else. If you put 1.1 Bomberman in 1.0.3.2, he'd probably move up in the high tier significantly BUT the 1.1 meta does not help Bomberman even a little bit, which is why he drops down so much. Heck, I can't remember who it was, but there was a Bomberman defender who shared his matchup chart in order to say he wasn't low tier but then ended up showing that he almost certainly was if the chart was anything to go by.

Now, as for whether or not I think Bomberman is low tier, I feel like anywhere from low-mid to the top of low tier (so 28th to 34th on my list) is a pretty good spot for Bomberman to be. The problem with low tier in this particular demo is that there are very few characters who are actually bad so mid tier dips heavily into the bottom 10.

(Funnily enough, I've spoken about 1.0.3.2 so much, but I remember that we never finished the second 1.0.3.2 tier list)


I'm gonna have to disagree with a lot of things here. Bomberman can deal with projectiles quite effectively. He can duck out Fox and Falco's lasers (unfortunately, it's not the case for short hop lasers), duck out Samus' Super missiles, has the mobility to dodge Samus' heat-seeking missiles and Mario's fireball spam (even on ToS when Mario camps on the platforms). Bomberman's small bombs completely cancels out Tails Bot which, which weakens Tails' stage control prowess. And if that's not enough, Bomberman can reflect projectiles with aerial side-b (Samus mains beware). The only projectiles I recall ever having trouble with are Link's boomerangs, Falco's short-hop lasers, and Peach's turnips. If anything, Bomberman's main problems are characters with disjoints, not projectile users. He has the mobility and tools to deal with projectile spam.

You do have a point with Bomberman's Little Mac syndrome (though it's beginning to get overused now...) A good Bomberman will basically have no problems getting edgeguarded so long they maintain decent stage control. In fact, Bomberman's recovery isn't even that edgeguardable if you recover low and try to sweetspot the stage ledge. His hitbox on up-b features the entirety of his torso to his head (mind you which is pretty fat), so I hope you have a good disjoint or a move that trades with it.

And Bomberman's grabgame is crazily underestimated. Up-throw is a great combo starter on fast fallers, f-throw sets up edgeguards pretty well, b-throw is a good kill throw when near the ledge (I've killed a Pit at 65% on ToS once), and down throw chains into itself at low percentages, and can combo into f-air at almost any percent so long you read DI.

His KO power is stupid when it comes to fair and up-b set-ups. This videowhich I'll shamefully advertise will show what he's capable of.
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And I wouldn't say that the meta screws over Bomberman due it the favor of projectiles and grabs, it's mainly top-tiers that he has trouble with, and most of the top tiers aren't even projectile or grab heavy to begin with. It's mostly about disjoints now. Especially with this statement:
TSF.Strife wrote:
other characters who DO benefit from these changes who Bomberman used to beat have either got better or have now got more tools to deal with Bomberman

The characters that come to mind with this one are Kirby, Wario, and Luigi. And even then, only one of the characters I've listed are top-tier material (Luigi in-case you haven't fought a competent player, though Kirby comes close), not to mention that they've been buffed on their own terms instead of relying off of the new changes to the mechanics. Bomberman used to outright beat Chibi-Robo and Bandanna Dee, but their buffs made the matchup more even, though I still think it's in Bomberman's favor. In reality, the biggest threat to Bomberman is actually Zelda, and the projectile she uses isn't even traditional. Heck, a decent portion of Bomberman's moves can trade or even beat Din's Fire.

And I will admit, the MU Spread that I made about Bomberman months ago was really inaccurate. It's my fault I based it off of the my personal experience as the sole factor. I should've taken the current metagame, tourney results, and how he fares off against the best players for their respective character into account as well.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:25 pm
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But at least, :bomberman: is not bottom (perhaps), his metagame ain't good comparing other characters.

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Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:06 am
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Akabonba wrote:

better nerf bomberman am i right guys?

please this was ironic dont kill me

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Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm
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Whatcha doin'? They'll kill you now :ko:

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Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:31 pm
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Image New tier list
Also I will defend BDee and say why I think he is top 25. (rant begin) Bandana Dee has a lot of good tools. His nair in particular is basically Smash Ultimate Palutena nair which is really scary. He has great mobility as well. His two projectiles are great. Neutral-B can be used as a defensive option against swordies and approaches as well as a half-decent projectile. Side-B does have bad lag but is really obnoxious as an edgeguarding/gimping tool. Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight. Nair, Bair, Side-B, Neutral-B, Fair, Dair, posiibly even down-B can all be used to great effect to gimp. Bair in particular is an amazing move (probs because it's Brawl Dedede's Bair) for edguarding. He can even do the Fence of Pain. And he can kill. I killed Mario with Bair at 80%. UAir kills around there, as does Up-B. He also has incredible throws. F-THrow is a suicide throw, D-Throw is a kill throw, U-Throw is a combo starter, and B-THrow is a good way to put the opponent in an edgeguarding situation. Combine all this with some great smash attacks and tilts, and you have a good character. However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. Bandana tho beats Bowser and DK for one reason. He is tiny. Bandana Dee can just Nair them to high percents very quickly. Bandana Dee is a definite high tier. (rant end)

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Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:23 pm
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Well, your defense about BDee is valid, but his position is too biased compairing the other characters. Talking about this:
I said Lloyd has problems with his recovery. Why the hell is Luffy high, he suffers of endlag long attacks like gum gum rocket if it's failed. Link is clearly top 10, has a amazing projectile edgeguard. Same with Ichigo. Zelda is top high tier. Kirby and Pit are high too. Isaac is low, his attacks are fully nerfed. g&w is bottom 3. Why you putting Megaman and DK low, DK is top mid or low high. About Sonic, i think you hate him, you're still finding his weaknesses instead of strengths. Goku is the worst.

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Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:10 am
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
[ Image ] New tier list
Also I will defend BDee and say why I think he is top 25. (rant begin) Bandana Dee has a lot of good tools. His nair in particular is basically Smash Ultimate Palutena nair which is really scary. He has great mobility as well. His two projectiles are great. Neutral-B can be used as a defensive option against swordies and approaches as well as a half-decent projectile. Side-B does have bad lag but is really obnoxious as an edgeguarding/gimping tool. Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight. Nair, Bair, Side-B, Neutral-B, Fair, Dair, posiibly even down-B can all be used to great effect to gimp. Bair in particular is an amazing move (probs because it's Brawl Dedede's Bair) for edguarding. He can even do the Fence of Pain. And he can kill. I killed Mario with Bair at 80%. UAir kills around there, as does Up-B. He also has incredible throws. F-THrow is a suicide throw, D-Throw is a kill throw, U-Throw is a combo starter, and B-THrow is a good way to put the opponent in an edgeguarding situation. Combine all this with some great smash attacks and tilts, and you have a good character. However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. Bandana tho beats Bowser and DK for one reason. He is tiny. Bandana Dee can just Nair them to high percents very quickly. Bandana Dee is a definite high tier. (rant end)


BandanaDeeMain wrote:
Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight
.
BandanaDeeMain wrote:
However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability

Brilliant deduction there. You've totally convinced me that Bandanna Dee that BDee is top 25.

There's also so many things wrong with your statement there, but I really don't wanna write an essay.

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Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:59 am
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BandanaDeeMain wrote:
[ Image ] New tier list
Also I will defend BDee and say why I think he is top 25. (rant begin) Bandana Dee has a lot of good tools. His nair in particular is basically Smash Ultimate Palutena nair which is really scary. He has great mobility as well. His two projectiles are great. Neutral-B can be used as a defensive option against swordies and approaches as well as a half-decent projectile. Side-B does have bad lag but is really obnoxious as an edgeguarding/gimping tool. Speaking of edgeguarding, this is BDee's highlight. Nair, Bair, Side-B, Neutral-B, Fair, Dair, posiibly even down-B can all be used to great effect to gimp. Bair in particular is an amazing move (probs because it's Brawl Dedede's Bair) for edguarding. He can even do the Fence of Pain. And he can kill. I killed Mario with Bair at 80%. UAir kills around there, as does Up-B. He also has incredible throws. F-THrow is a suicide throw, D-Throw is a kill throw, U-Throw is a combo starter, and B-THrow is a good way to put the opponent in an edgeguarding situation. Combine all this with some great smash attacks and tilts, and you have a good character. However, Bandana DOES struggle with edgeguarding and survivability. Bandana tho beats Bowser and DK for one reason. He is tiny. Bandana Dee can just Nair them to high percents very quickly. Bandana Dee is a definite high tier. (rant end)


This tier list definitely looks like an actual tier list this time around. But there are some issues.

:bandanadee: isn't Horrendous but he's far from Top 25: Bandana Dee fundamentally doesn't work as a character unless hes in a meta that solely relies on range and trades like in 1.0.3.2 because his evasive mobility combined with size and disjoints kind of was his saving grace from such a subpar character. Bandana Dee's Nair does have multihit properties like Palutena's but it's overall slower in terms of frame data and doesn't really combo into other aerials like Palutena's does in Ultimate, it's more like Smash 4 Palutena's Nair except slightly sped up which sounds alright but for a character like Bdee it just doesn't add up. Neutral-B takes a ton of time to charge and you can't jump cancel, shield cancel, etc. before throwing out the projectile making the move fully commitable while the projectile itself only deals 10% and doesn't even apply much shield pressure and doesn't setup into anything and barely even kills most opponents at reasonable % unless they are touching the ledge. Side-B is too slow of a projectile to be reliable in neutral and most characters can rushdown or even trade with the projectile for free. Most people just need to realize that the pinning hitbox of Side-B goes through shields sometimes and it can be avoided. Bandana Dee's edge guarding is definitely one of his better aspects but there are characters that are simply just better at that job (Jiggs, Kirby, Pac-Man (mostly at ledge though), etc. to list a few) making Bandana Dee still underwhelming at one of his better attributes. Bandana Dee has decent killing normals but they arent fast or reliable enough to be reliably whiffed out while Bandana Dee only really has Down-Air based confirms which got nerfed from 1.0.3.2 in terms of its applicability which actually limits Bandana Dee's ability to take stocks without cheesing the opponent with F-Air (which also got nerfed in terms of knockback). Bandana Dee's throws are actually horrible sans Forward-Throw at ledge but it's still a niche throw at best. Down-Throw can be easily DI'd out of making it unreliable for kills and only really meant for if the opponent got to a ridiculous % and you have Down-Throw unstaled. Up-Throw actually has too much lag to reliably combo it into anything as long as the opponent jumps and Back-Throw doesnt give Bdee enough time to force ledge trap or tech chase scenarios making it just an underwhelming slow throw that can only follow-up once in a blue moon if you get really lucky.

Bandana Dee does have good range, access to a decent neutral, and is hard to hit making him an annoying character to play against with some decent offstage potential and the likes. But the character is too light and just has to put in so much work for no reason simply making him a glass cannon without any of the fire power. His neutral isn't great enough for him to constantly nickel and dime opponents and he struggles to really do anything late-game when the opponent plays for defensive with shields. Bandana Dee isn't very fast removing any chance of him applying constant pressure for his above average normals and the fact that his moveset doesnt compliment his playstyle well outside of Forward-Aerial just creates an incomplete and overall mediocre at best character.

I'd argue he's around the top of Bottom 10 or bottom of Bottom 15 currently.

:donkeykong: isn't bottom 5: Now while Donkey Kong clearly has his issues that still makes him a mostly bottom 15 character, he's still not THAT bad. Donkey Kong actually has guaranteed combos that brings almost the entire cast (including pichu) from 0 to 60. Grounded Cargo Up-Throw can combo into Up-Air into another falling Up-Air with decent enough timing regardless of DI (in some scenarios you might want to slightly tilt your stick to the direction of the opponent depending on the matchup) and you can actually double jump up-air to forward-air game for example. Donkey Kong actually has one of the best grab games still while having access to a potent down-throw chaingrab on a lot of higher tiered matchups against non-short and floaty characters (Like Samus, Kirby, etc.). Donkey Kong actually has a decent neutral game unlike some of the glassy characters below him thanks to his access to great mobility, great range (even if non-disjointed), overall great normals, and mostly alright frame data and landing options. You can actually string back-air into grab at 0 to mid and you can probably do it around DK's kill % window for grounded Cargo Up-Throw Forward-Air which is a guaranteed confirm on almost the entire cast (non-Lightweights however) and can kill at 70. Donkey Kong does get destroyed by any character he cannot deal damage fast with off of simple grab conversions such as Kirby, Samus, etc. However for the most part, Donkey Kong does work as a decent glassy character with an oppressive advantage state and good neutral game but with a horrendous disadvantage state and recovery. While it may not completely cut DK as a high tier character, it doesn't make him a bad character either.

Pichu is definitely the worst: Pichu is honestly the worst character in the game. While Sonic isn't great, he at the very least has more things going for him when compared to Pichu. Sonic has amazing mobility (even better than Pichu's which is like one of the few things Pichu has anyways), access to an actual neutral game with great frame data and above average normals to utilize his mobility and frame data with crossup Nair (even with its vulnerabilities towards shieldgrab) being a great tool to constantly pressure the opponent while comboing into a plethora of things while also being potent for kill confirms. Sonic has a great ability to nickel and dime most characters while having a decent enough advantage state to work as a bait and punish-based character on his own even if his advantage state is clearly not as good as most other characters above him. Sonic also has a fantastic off-stage game which works great with his great neutral game since it means that Sonic can play at ledge a lot. Also Sonic has reliable kill throws so his late game is actually not too shabby. Sonic does suck vs a lot of character matchups, but it probably isn't too big of a deal when compared to Pichu's horrendous matchup chart.

Goku does have an issue with having too many major flaws such as a bad neutral game, bad recovery, bad disadvantage, no disjoints, swordie matchups, etc. His mechanics are still heavily flawed as Kaioken is useless for anything except for the back-throw infinite and Goku can't really utilize float cancel nearly as well as Peach since his moves are a lot more unsafe on shield and are easier to punish and deal with in terms of pressure in the first place. But even with all of that in mind, Goku at least has more things going for him than Pichu ever will be. Goku has a tremendously good advantage state off of Nair strings and is fantastic at forcing the opponent to make horrible decisions even at top level play which gives Goku the ability to capitalize off of pretty much anything the opponent does if they choke even once. Goku has access to one of the best ledge traps in the game (not including Pac-Man's hydraline) in the form of Kamehameha which can be held indefinitely and can cover almost all ledge options of any character that cannot reach Goku through a jump getup while being an untradeable disjointed-based attack with lots of range and it sends at a steep angle making it hard for most of the cast to recover back even at 0% which means that Goku can actually cheese most of the cast once he gets that neutral conversion going.

Pichu however has almost nothing going for him outside of decent mobility and a small hurtbox. Pichu is the lightest character in the game which is attributed by his self-damage properties (Which is significantly higher than Ultimate's so it is a much bigger deal here btw) making him stupidly glassy while he's a fastfaller which still makes him not too hard to combo for certain characters especially when considered that he's actually not too hard to chaingrab as a result. Pichu has a horrible recovery past 50% and it always damages himself noticeably regardless making edge guarding pichu a super dangerous position for pichu offstage. Pichu lacks any real kill power or neutral game even with discharge to really utilize anything in his tool kit and he still has a subpar advantage state making him again sort of like an extremely glassy cannon but with very little fire power. Because of all of these issues, almost every single character outclasses Pichu somehow.

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I checked the new maker, and Shielda is back.
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Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:47 am
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Playridise, bottom of bottom 15 IS 25th.

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