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Tier List Discussion 
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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
TSF.Strife wrote:
Fox has a good enough neutral to make up for his bad disadvantage. Black Mage doesn't.


What I said about Black Mage didn't have anything to do about his neutral special.

He wasn't talking about their neutral specials either, he was talking about their neutrals. I'm assuming you don't know what a neutral is, so he's the definition from the Smash wiki:
The neutral game, or just neutral, is a phase during gameplay when no player has a situational advantage over the other. In this phase, either player's objective is to "win the neutral game", i.e. land a hit with possible follow-ups, or punish the enemy for a failed attempt to do so.
What Strife is saying is that Fox has a good neutral game and Black Mage doesn't, so despite both characters having a bad disadvantage state it isn't as big a deal for Fox because his good neutral lets him avoid ever being in said disadvantage state. Black Mage doesn't have a good neutral, making him put in a disadvantage state much more often than Fox.

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Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:14 pm
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Lermonz basically summed up the point pretty damn well.

Gonna note this in a format where I bold it within the quote cause this is nigh impossible to read.
Blumiere-Lucato wrote:
FFF1105 wrote:
why is GnW so low on the tier list? he has a lot of disjoints, the best spike in the game, can crouch under spacie lazers, and chibi blaster, and he has a dthrow kill confirm. Just because fair sucks dosen't mean the character sucks! Also he can cancel/bounce pretty much any projectile with d-tilt, and has above average airspeed and groundspeed.

S: Addressing this quote, it's got a fair bit of misinformation.
1. Dair is definitely not the best spike in the game. It's decent sure, but it's a high-risk, high reward move that doesn't really hold up in comparison to more powerful/faster spikes that do their job better (i.e. Falco's)
2. Down Throw doesn't kill confirm. You have to read their tech option in order to confirm anything off it.
3. His mobility is actually kind of just average.


I quote. I'm sorry about that, but I'm also confused about G&W near bottom 5.
S: Fair enough. It's not really touched on much by a lot of people.

Just adding, I don't feel he's that bad - his recovery makes up a lot for his low durability, as it makes him hard to gimp and mid-air jumping before using it can basically recover from the bottom of Final D., for example, and it's really good horizontally, also.
S: Gimping doesn't necessarily matter when you're dying at obscenely low percents to everything. Game and Watch's light weight and fairly linear recovery options (i.e. mid-air jump and Trampoline) don't really give him much to work with offstage, and you are completely a sitting duck if you're parachuting down.

His up smash kills around 100%*; down smash has a sweet spot that kills around 75%*; back air is disjointed and safe on shield; neutral air comboes really good into itself, up air and up special; forward air can be used off the ledge, and paired with his recovery, gimps opponents easily (to not say down air, again, that spikes).
S: These would be respectable on pretty much any character except Game and Watch. Game and Watch will be dying well before his smash attacks start killing. Back Air is disjointed, but he gets nothing off it. Neutral Air can be really easily SDI'ed. Forward Air is mediocre. Gimping with it requires a pretty hefty commitment as you have to position yourself accordingly with a poor laggy hitbox and see my above point for Down Air.

His projectile, albeit slow, comes on a certain angle that punish approaches coming from air.
S: Nope. It's barely got the range to anti-air and it's not very good at it. It's really only useful for edgeguarding cheese, which it sucks at.

Up tilt comboes into itself against heavier characters, also leading to neutral air;
S: Okay, so you have one positive, but how are you gonna get that hit considering it's not that good of an anti-air and it has poor horizontal range.

His jab comes fast and comboes into down tilt, grab or even side tilt Wrong, that may lead to a gimp.
S: Not really, down tilt can lead to a gimp but it requires good positioning, and grab doesn't get too much off it.

Oil panic also counters certain types of zoning, like Link's arrow + bomb, which after charging the bucket kills at around 15% (and one-hit KOes without SDI, as long as I tested). Just adding another example, using bucket on Falco's lasers kills at 60% near ledge (as he can't reach it again).
S: Again. Character specific, and there won't be many situations where you can land this move.

He also has 2 windboxes (up air, that punishes characters with high end lag on its down air; and down tilt - read quote).
S: The windboxes are of pretty niche use as they only make characters who can't land delay their landing. The windboxes and multihit nature of Up Air means that the final hit misses a lot and Down Tilt's windbox is pretty situational.

Also, Judgement (Side Special) causes mind games, as 5 pressures shield, 4 directly breaks it, and 9 does what everyone knows. 1 and 2 are the only really bad ones, but it's worth it.
S: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrongity. Wrong. Yes, Judge causes some weird and screwy s***. However, Judge is a really bad move because the most worthwhile use is of a 9. It's range is awful, it's slow and you're basically betting your shield pressure and combo ender on a 2/9 or 1/9 chance of success. That's just a terrible option.

I know all that is probably old news but I just want to understand why he's so low on the tier list, as on my experience he's capable of dealing with many top 15s, specially considering that G&W faced like, two minor nerfs, and a lot of buffs on the last patch.
S: His buffs weren't helping him much. Other characters improved around him significantly thanks to their buffs and there were very few characters who were actually nerfed to be on the same level (i.e. Goku and Isaac) or who just suffered similarly and fell off due to really ineffective balance changes (i.e. Sonic and Black Mage).

Did he really dropped that much? How?
S: Yes. I've rambled on long enough, so here we go.
:gameandwatch:
1. Has a poor neutral. His mobility is pretty average to below average. His projectile is pretty awful, he doesn't get much reward on many of his good disjoints (like back air), and the rest of his moves are either a hefty commitment, unreliable, or probably hinder his neutral to some capacity. Not to mention, two of his aerials just straight up don't autocancel and they're some of his main spacing ones.
2. His advantage state is poor. He doesn't get much off throws aside from techchases, he doesn't have a good combo game, and he really struggles to secure kills as he has to make a fair number of reads with some pretty slow kill moves, and his offstage edgeguarding is pretty mediocre as his main kill moves are either high risk or just slow and only really effective on the first frames. Not to mention his kill moves aren't particularly strong either.
3. His disadvantage state is pretty abysmal because he's the 2nd lightest character in the game, his landing options are slow, and his recovery is pretty linear.

Yes, he has disjoints, but they don't help him much in any way.


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Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:41 pm
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I get the neutral game situation, but in my opinion, I would've put Black Mage just a little higher because of his combo options.

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Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:22 pm
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TSF.Strife wrote:
I'll occasionally check back and respond to these cause I've noticed a pattern of responses of tier lists, but nobody's actually discussing


Why the hell is Marth in C+ tier, it's much more than high tier :x

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Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:49 pm
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The only one I'm confused about is Black Mage. I mean, sure he has a bad neutral game and Warp has a risk/reward situation, but he's not really that bad. I mean, has plenty of options to follow up with Haste (mainly his aireals). Stop can stun opponents for a while, giving Black Mage a chance to perform some cool combos when the opponent is near the edge of the stage, like the ones shown below:

Combo One: Stop + Haste + D-Air

Combo Two: Stop + Haste + B-Air

Combo Three: Stop + Haste + U-Air

Combo Four: Stop + Haste + Z-Air

And if the opponent is not close to the edge, you can use F-Smash or U-Smash after using a fully charged Neutral Special. Sure, Black Mage may have a bad neutral game, but he has some very interesting combos.

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Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:07 pm
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PsychoSSF2 wrote:
The only one I'm confused about is Black Mage. I mean, sure he has a bad neutral game and Warp has a risk/reward situation, but he's not really that bad. I mean, has plenty of options to follow up with Haste (mainly his aireals). Stop can stun opponents for a while, giving Black Mage a chance to perform some cool combos when the opponent is near the edge of the stage, like the ones shown below:

Combo One: Stop + Haste + D-Air

Combo Two: Stop + Haste + B-Air

Combo Three: Stop + Haste + U-Air

Combo Four: Stop + Haste + Z-Air

And if the opponent is not close to the edge, you can use F-Smash or U-Smash after using a fully charged Neutral Special. Sure, Black Mage may have a bad neutral game, but he has some very interesting combos.

none of those are combos, because Haste does not have any true follow ups. And Black Mage doesn't even have a Zair.
If you wanna talk about about combo starters then talk about BM's Nair or Utilt or even Uthrow. Those all have true follow ups.

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Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:50 pm
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Lermonz wrote:
PsychoSSF2 wrote:
The only one I'm confused about is Black Mage. I mean, sure he has a bad neutral game and Warp has a risk/reward situation, but he's not really that bad. I mean, has plenty of options to follow up with Haste (mainly his aireals). Stop can stun opponents for a while, giving Black Mage a chance to perform some cool combos when the opponent is near the edge of the stage, like the ones shown below:

Combo One: Stop + Haste + D-Air

Combo Two: Stop + Haste + B-Air

Combo Three: Stop + Haste + U-Air

Combo Four: Stop + Haste + Z-Air

And if the opponent is not close to the edge, you can use F-Smash or U-Smash after using a fully charged Neutral Special. Sure, Black Mage may have a bad neutral game, but he has some very interesting combos.

none of those are combos, because Haste does not have any true follow ups. And Black Mage doesn't even have a Zair.
If you wanna talk about about combo starters then talk about BM's Nair or Utilt or even Uthrow. Those all have true follow ups.

This.

Also, combos don't mean s*** if you have a bad neutral, otherwise Sandbag would be one hell of a lot higher.

<Detailed Marth s*** will go here>
TL;DR on Marth -> He's weaker. He doesn't have as-insane kill confirms anymore (uthrow -> up-b), his tippers are weaker and he seems to be more oriented towards landing tippers. Everyone else has improved around him and his offstage is actually quite bad now. He's now an honest character who got left behind by everyone else getting better around him, hence why he's high mid tier.

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Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:48 am
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Thanks for clarifying things up m8. Now I see it P: . He was B- once, wasn't he? Hopefully he gets more buffs, I really like playing him and that would be nice. Just asking, isn't techread one of the main kill options from Fox (down throw then up smash)? (Even though he's currently C tier) How is grab + down throw + up smash (techreading as G&W) unreliable?

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Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:04 pm
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Lermonz wrote:
And Black Mage doesn't even have a Zair.


LOL, sorry, I meant N-Air. Also...

Lermonz wrote:
none of those are combos, because Haste does not have any true follow ups.


:roll: You're calling my signature Black Mage "Sweet Victory" (Haste + D-Air) combo a non-true follow up? :roll:

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Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:29 pm
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thanks

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Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:42 pm
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Blumiere-Lucato wrote:
Thanks for clarifying things up m8. Now I see it P: . He was B- once, wasn't he? Hopefully he gets more buffs, I really like playing him and that would be nice. Just asking, isn't techread one of the main kill options from Fox (down throw then up smash)? (Even though he's currently C tier) How is grab + down throw + up smash (techreading as G&W) unreliable?

Game and Watch was good in .0.2, he got nerfed to low tier in .0.3 and then just didn't get buffed enough in 1.1

Fox has other options out of tech reading like Jab -> Up Smash and even some Nair confirms into other aerials and up air juggles.

The thing about grab -> dthrow -> usmash is that it's unreliable because you have to actually make the read on what they're going to do, and it requires some commitment in order to land cause people can mixup the tech options.

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Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:29 am
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Right then, thx.

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Well, I like your tier list BandanaDeeMain, but I thought you could've put Black Mage a little bit higher.

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Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:35 pm
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Where is pichu? I haven't seen a tier list with him. He should at least be B tier

there is no pichu emoticon :evil:


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Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:44 am
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jxaumees wrote:
Where is pichu? I haven't seen a tier list with him. He should at least be B tier
there is no pichu emoticon :evil:

I dunno what the status of official tier lists are, but if you look at any 1.1 tier list as of recent, most people have him in Bottom 3 due to his poor range, poor neutral and very poor disadvantage due to how Discharge worsens him overall.

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