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Tier List Discussion 
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So I feel the official tier list for 1,0,3 is pretty accurate, but I feel pretty strongly about some characters placement. (if you saw my post about Kirby, you know what I mean.) So here's I link to my tier list.

https://ibb.co/kwB4h7

feel free to yell at me all you want. I love destructive criticism.

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Last edited by GoodBignoah1234 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:33 am
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First make an actual signature, then we'll talk about how s*** your tier list is.

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Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:12 pm
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At least he got Luigi's placement right :pikachu:

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Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:25 pm
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GoodBignoah1234 wrote:

Lermonz wrote:
First make an actual signature, then we'll talk about how s*** your tier list is.


Hello, Mr lemon head, why don't we not judge people by the amount time they spend working on their account, because the more time they spend here the less time they spend playing the game, thus making their opinion less relevant. So please stop being a b**** and talk about the actual tier list.

Alright lets talk about it.

Meta Knight and Fox are both too high. They're really good, but not better than Marth, Ichigo and Samus.Bomberman, Chibi-Robo and Black Mage are way lower than they should be. Bomberman has a really good combo game, can kill easily and can basically restrict where his opponent can go if played well enough. Chibi-Robo has great combos that can almost always lead to U-air, which is a great kill move in its own right. Black Mage has pretty good combos, has a throw that deals 20%, and can get rid of a lot of the opponent's options if he has time to full charge F-smash Sonic should be Low Tier. He has no disjoints or projectiles in a meta where those two things are extremely important. Pit should be lower. Multihits don't work very well in this game and almost all of his moves are multihits. Luffy should be lowered. He has barely anything to combo or kill with, and his extended limbs can be hit. Donkey Kong should be top tier because of his outstanding combo game. Even better kill options. And his hitboxes are extremely big. Wario should be lower for the same reasons as Sonic, but Wario has an even worse neutral. Although I do believe he's better than what the official tier list says, he definitely isn't high tier. Mega Man is too low. He has a amazing neutral and really good everything else. Peach should be Mid Tier. Her combo game is pretty good and turnips are amazing if used correctly, but they aren't safe to pull out. And her kill moves are either slow or difficult to land. Pac-man should be lower not because he's bad, just that everything about him is mediocre or pretty good. Isaac should be quite a bit higher, his neutral is great and his combo game is pretty good too. There should also overall be less characters in bottom tier or lower tier because most, if not all, of the characters are viable.
Everything else about this tier list I either agree with or I'm not sure of because I don't know the character that well.

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Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:51 pm
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GoodBignoah1234 wrote:
So I feel the official tier list for 1,0,3 is pretty accurate, but I feel pretty strongly about some characters placement. (if you saw my post about Kirby, you know what I mean.) So here's I link to my tier list.

https://ibb.co/kwB4h7

feel free to yell at me all you want. I love destructive criticism.



Let me go make a huge rant on your tier list:

Bomberman isn't the worst: Bomberman has an infamously good grab game which allows for Bomberman to go ham on his insane damage output and to cause the opponent to constantly play overcautious while also having to be limited in movement options from bombs. Bomberman has ridiculously good stage control with bombs and Bomberman possesses insanely good kill setups including the infamous down-throw to P-Bomb. Oh and Bomberman has results from OriginalJoey. Not going to go too into detail into bomberman, but i'd put him in the upper end of mid tier.

Chibi Robo is Top 15 and not bottom 5 at all: Chibi Robo has 80% kill confirms off of Up-Air along with having setups into it thanks to Up-Throw which is literally the same percent confirms as smash 4 bowser! Oh and Blaster can confirm into kill moves like B-Air. Chibi Robo's access to great disjoints allows for Chibi Robo to never have to deal with trading with his opponents, especially against characters without disjoints giving Chibi Robo a huge advantage. Chibi Robo also has insanely good ground mobility with dash cancelling and Chibi Robo has one of the best recoveries in the game simple because of his dumb side-b and up-special combination. Most of his worst matchups got nerfed too so there's that.

Black Mage a LITTLE too low: While most people may agree with your Black Mage position, i find Black Mage to be a little underrated. Black Mage overall has really good frame data, disjointed range, stupid active frames (Especially his infamous F-Smash), great ledge trapping ability in the form of Meteor + F-Smash coverage, and lots of results from Drarky. While his neutral isn't great, however in SSF2 the neutral game tends to be more player-based than character-based so Black Mage isn't really as bad as some may say. I'd say to put him in the higher end of Bottom 10 or in mid tier.

Zelda is too low: Zelda's defensive game overall makes her hard to fight against since disjoints cannot really be traded with properly. This mechanic alone benefits Zelda heavily and her kill confirms can be quite insane with her lightning kick 50/50s. Place her in the higher end of mid tier.

Isaac a little too low: Isaac does have terrible frame data and his best defensive moves from 1.0.2 did become tradeable ruining his defensive game by quite a bit, however his side-special "Move" is way too good for Isaac to be low tier. The move allows Isaac to edge guard anyone for free without having to worry about trading and backwards side-special to down-smash is an actual 50/50. Isaac also can just abuse the hell out of his insane active frames and his results from Djinn at least warrants Isaac to be around Mid Tier.

Luffy is way too high: Definitely put Luffy at bottom 3. His lack of disjoints and extended hurtboxes along with terrible frame data makes most of Luffy's moves end up having him become a sitting duck most of the time and it makes him super dependent on port priority most of the time. Luffy may have a couple of dumb confirms, however he doesn't really have any ways to reliable kill. His kill throw kinda sucks, none of. his confirms really lead into any kill moves, and most of his moves just don't kill well with DI. The only way Luffy can truly kill is with forcing a tech chase with Back-Throw and maybe getting a D-Smash depending on the opponent's tech roll and killing them at 120 if you are lucky. Oh and Luffy's recovery is kinda glitchy, specifically his up-b and how he can't really recover when under a stage like ZSS except its a. little less of a prominent issue because of down-special.

Pit is too High: Pit's moves got obliterated by the new multihit system which makes a lot of his moves not connect properly. Pit also has a pretty underwhelming punish game, has priority problems especially with arrows which gets clanked with a lot of things, he doesn't really have good frame data, and Pit has an overall gimable recovery along with lacking an advantage state outside of. maybe having disjoints. Put him somewhere around low tier tbh.

Mega Man too low: While Mega Man did get screwed over by the new projectile mechanics, Mega Man still has pellets that allow for him to literally confirm anything off of pellets at close range. Mega Man also can abuse the superarmor from Beat and just cancel an aerial which is a better alternative than just shorthop aerial and it overall makes Mega Man harder to deal with. Mega Man is also great at zoning out pretty much anyone and Mega Man's Grab Confirms + usage of P-Bomb combination allows him to kill his opponents consistently at 90-100 I'd put him in the lower end of high tier where Yoshi is.

Sonic is way too high: Sonic got destroyed by port priority tbh. Sonic pretty much plays like a bait and punish character because of the fact that he can't trade with other moves while still not having good enough frame data like fox to just hit the opponent in the first place and constantly get in. However the issue with that is how he doesn't really have a punish game. Sonic doesn't really have any true good confirms off of any of his moves along with having pretty underwhelming kill power and being pretty easy to wall out and camp. Put him around bottom 5.

Jigglypuff is way too high: Jigglypuff lost her insane air mobility and given the fact that she tends to lose the trade with her opponents due to her nonexistent disjoints and poor range, her lightweight gets abused completely while her neutral gets weaker. Jigglypuff also doesn't really have any good matchups while also being easy to wall out by pretty much anyone while also having a pretty nonexistent grab game.

Pac-Man is too high: I think I've beaten this chracter to the ground enough, but let me just go briefly sum up my points. Pac-Man has below average range making his matchups against higher tiered characters pretty bad along with having terrible matchups against most top tiers. Pac-Man also has a pretty nonexistent combo game and punish game especially compared to smash 4 while also having very unreliable and poor kill power where he has to depend on hydrant 99% of the time for killing as bell only has a set amount of stun time instead of being percent based. Pac-Man also has predictable landing options, a pretty bad tech roll making him susceptible to tech chasing pretty easily, a grab with lots of endlag, and more. Put him either right below bowser probably.

Wario is Bottom 5 and not High Tier: Wario has some of the worst range in the game, terrible matchups against most of the cast, pretty poor KO options outside of waft, no real approach options, and his air speed got nerfed for pretty much no reason. These reasons alone make Wario bottom 5 despite a slightly above average punish game and decent recovery.

Kirby is too high: Kirby gets screwed over by the trading system especially without port priority meaning his light weight is even more of an issue. Kirby also has some mobility issues and doesn't really have any decent range. Kirby doesn't really have good enough of a matchup spread either to warrant his current spot. I'd place him around the lower end of mid tier.

DK is too low: Donkey Kong literally has near guaranted 0 to deaths off of cargo up-throw! He can literally abuse his B-Air then go for a cargo up-throw and then just make one read then your stock is done. That alone + Donkey Kong having the best results in ssf2 beta as a whole thanks to prolific leads Dnkey Kong to being near top 5 material.

Peach is too high: Peach has too many swordie matchup issues to be that high + her walling abilities with turnips gets ruined by their terrible priority to the point where fox's lasers can outprioritize turnips. Place her around top of mid tier or in the lower end of high tier.

Meta Knight is too high: Meta Knight is infamous for having the worst tech roll in the game along with his ladder being easy to DI out of, that and the fact that Meta Knight doesn't really have a good enough matchup spread to warrant being close to top 5, i'd say to place Meta Knight right outside of top 10.

Fox is too high: Again, another character whose matchup spread isn't really good enough to be quite this high, but Fox I guess does have more representation and even crazier kill confirms compared to Meta Knight to at least be top 10. I'd say around in between top 5 and 10.

Tails and Samus should bein their own tier: Tails and Samus pretty much have no losing matchups along with having near nonexistent disadvantage state outside of minor issues (Such as Tail's not so great vertical recovery and Samus having issues when walling with characters with reflectors despite winning against those characters). This is probably the smallest nitpick but i'd like to mention that.

Overall your tier list is pretty... bad. I'd suggest to get into competitive ssf2 some more and to learn more about other characters and learning more from high/top level players and what they have to say to improve your tier list. There were definitely other issues I had with your tier list such as Pikachu, G&W, and other character placements but these were the ones that stood out the most to me. Also I suggest making more tiers to make the tier list seem more organized (it doesn't need to be as much as my tier list though lol). Oh and sorry for not getting too into detail as I could easily write an essay for each character, but I just wanted to give you a couple of reasons for why I disagree with said placements as there were too many issues with your tier list.

Also here's my current tier list as of right now in case you were wondering:

Attachment:
Final SSF2 1.0.3.2 Tier List-min.png
Final SSF2 1.0.3.2 Tier List-min.png [ 87.18 KiB | Viewed 1505 times ]

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:47 pm
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ok, I listen to your complaints, er, suggestions, and made a new tier list accordingly. Here you go.

https://ibb.co/fBtRfS

feel free to bash this one too, I'm gonna listen to all the complaints till I make an objectively perfect their list. (not that people will ever not bash it.)

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Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:49 pm
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As we see more tier lists shared I've become curious as to where those people draw the viability line. Thoughts?


Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:26 pm
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Callinater wrote:
As we see more tier lists shared I've become curious as to where those people draw the viability line. Thoughts?

Luigi to be honest is the only character that is truly unviable in my opinion. Luffy at least got a ton of results from Noctis to prove that Luffy could work as a viable character. Naruto has a tech chasing niche that could make him okay vs characters with bad tech rolls like Meta Knight as a niche counterpick along with technically having results from Prolific who went solo-naruto on one tournament and got top 8 and went DK the rest of the way. And everyone else at least has something going for them (ZSS and Pit has disjoints, Jigglypuff has rest 50/50s that kills at 10, Sonic has Artmagic and a semi-good neutral and N-Air to make him good in some cases + port priority sonic, etc.). Luigi has literally no real strengths with his best strength (His fireballs) being easy to counterplay with any move being able to clank with fireballs while the move doesn't stuff approach properly, and he suffers way too much from the new ssf2 mechanics and port priority doesn't even benefit him that much.

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Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:06 am
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some notes im gonna put in rn

BM is easily bottom 10 at this point, his toolset really isnt as good as people assume it is
very weak neutral game with minimal disjointed options, and the ones that are disjointed dont work (Uair)
slightly above average frame data, tho he still has really slow moves for no apparent reason (usmash), problem with these fast moves is that most if not all of them are very easy to outspace and just beat out.
not to mention that without port he cant beat hitboxes with any of his moves besides the barely disjointed bair and dtilt
his combo game really isnt strong at all, and the only thing that keeps his damage racking okay is a 20% dthrow lmao
he still has a very strong edge-guard and ledge game but his disadvantage is complete trash, and the fact you can clank with meteor now makes it even worse
also a psa that drarky's results especially nowadays dont say much for bm when hes playing chibi like 80% of the time at least

zss on the other hand is hella underrated, sure her recovery has been nerfed but its still somewhat usable, she has an insane combo game and with her long range neutral tools of nair, fair and plasma whip she can contend with a lot of the better characters

bdee could be higher with some real love given to the character, amazing spacing tools in fair and nspecial, along with a fairly strong combo game and good overall kill options (bair, up b, down b, fsmash, offstage fair/nair)

pit is definitely bottom 5, next to no range, awful frame data, poor damage, sucks at killing, sucks at recovering, sucks at everything

sora is also a character that could see a higher placing with more exposure, his combo game can be incredible at times and with kill confirms a plenty his only real problem is a somewhat sub-par neutral game

bowser is a character thats slowly going to go down the tier list unless he's given more mobility in a future patch

ness will probably stay a mid tier or dip a little bit once the pseudo infinite gets removed, his punish game is still brutal

fox > falco but they both suck now, not top tiers at all, especially online

goku is still a ridiculous character and surely top 10

issac is still a good character, his mu chart however is all over the place, he absolutely destroys the worst characters yet gets wrecked by link and samus

top 5 atm is samus/tails > marth > lloyd >>> link/dk

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Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:16 am
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Corvid Crow wrote:
some notes im gonna put in rn

BM is easily bottom 10 at this point, his toolset really isnt as good as people assume it is
very weak neutral game with minimal disjointed options, and the ones that are disjointed dont work (Uair)
slightly above average frame data, tho he still has really slow moves for no apparent reason (usmash), problem with these fast moves is that most if not all of them are very easy to outspace and just beat out.
not to mention that without port he cant beat hitboxes with any of his moves besides the barely disjointed bair and dtilt
his combo game really isnt strong at all, and the only thing that keeps his damage racking okay is a 20% dthrow lmao
he still has a very strong edge-guard and ledge game but his disadvantage is complete trash, and the fact you can clank with meteor now makes it even worse
also a psa that drarky's results especially nowadays dont say much for bm when hes playing chibi like 80% of the time at least

zss on the other hand is hella underrated, sure her recovery has been nerfed but its still somewhat usable, she has an insane combo game and with her long range neutral tools of nair, fair and plasma whip she can contend with a lot of the better characters

bdee could be higher with some real love given to the character, amazing spacing tools in fair and nspecial, along with a fairly strong combo game and good overall kill options (bair, up b, down b, fsmash, offstage fair/nair)

pit is definitely bottom 5, next to no range, awful frame data, poor damage, sucks at killing, sucks at recovering, sucks at everything

sora is also a character that could see a higher placing with more exposure, his combo game can be incredible at times and with kill confirms a plenty his only real problem is a somewhat sub-par neutral game

bowser is a character thats slowly going to go down the tier list unless he's given more mobility in a future patch

ness will probably stay a mid tier or dip a little bit once the pseudo infinite gets removed, his punish game is still brutal

fox > falco but they both suck now, not top tiers at all, especially online

goku is still a ridiculous character and surely top 10

issac is still a good character, his mu chart however is all over the place, he absolutely destroys the worst characters yet gets wrecked by link and samus

top 5 atm is samus/tails > marth > lloyd >>> link/dk


Black Mage's Frame Data is a lot better than you may think, but i'm too lazy to go into the game's files but trust me it's pretty damn good. Moves like F-Air, N-Air, possibly B-Air (Technically disjointed), etc. are all fast disjointed moves. Eventhough his disjoints aren't spectacular, at least it is something. D-Throw dealing 20% is kind of dumb to be fair, and N-Air to Up-Tilt strings are you know, a thing that exists. His ability to ledge trap and just cover every ledge option with F-Smash is noteworthy. He may not be too spectacular, however his strengths are at least enough to make him functional enough to be above the characters below him.

Zero Suit Samus's recovery is completely glitched to the point where it is impossible for her to recover from under the stage and for a tether recovery it has pretty horrendous distance. A lot of her combo follow ups and setups like Up-Special are unsafe on hit in many situations so they honestly aren't that threatening.

Bandana Dee does have some more kill setups than he did before especially with D-Air, however it still isn't great and he still is sort of a glass cannon without fire power. Though gotta give credit where credit is due with his super good defensive game and retreating game with disjoints.

Pit's range is actually still decent and disjointed, it's just the multihits that f**k it up. Also Down-Smash and Up-Air are definitely good kill options and being a swordie fundamentally puts him at least above bottom 5.

The issue with Sora is the fact that outside of disjoints and having a good combo game and I guess a couple of good individual moves, he honestly lacks any other real advantages which makes him somewhat underwhelming.

Bowser at least has a top tier grab range and he can abuse shieldpoking a lot with D-Air which makes his neutral not as bad as it actually seems despite having some of the worst landing options in the game and for being super slow. He also has some pretty decent yet strict kill confirms that gives him the ability to take stocks at 70% near consistently.

Ness is probably gonna drop

The Spacies are still good as despite not having disjoints and for being combo food with a gimpable recovery, they still have a really good neutral with a fantastic punish game with an unparalleled pressure game along with them having stupidly good frame data (Especially fox) along with Fox having insane mobility and Falco having his insane edge guarding game. The fact that a lot of their moves are hard to punish in general and how they can constantly overwhelm their opponents easily makes them still an upper high tier charcater.

Goku would of been top 10 if his frame data wasn't so below average. If you've actually been to the game's files then you'd realize how actually bad goku's frame data is while also having range issues.

Isaac is honestly a lot lower as the new mechanics screwed up his defensive game and he pretty much has the worst frame data in the game making his ability to be rushed down way too apparent compared to 1.0.2

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playridise wrote:

Black Mage's Frame Data is a lot better than you may think, but i'm too lazy to go into the game's files but trust me it's pretty damn good. Moves like F-Air, N-Air, possibly B-Air (Technically disjointed), etc. are all fast disjointed moves. Eventhough his disjoints aren't spectacular, at least it is something. D-Throw dealing 20% is kind of dumb to be fair, and N-Air to Up-Tilt strings are you know, a thing that exists. His ability to ledge trap and just cover every ledge option with F-Smash is noteworthy. He may not be too spectacular, however his strengths are at least enough to make him functional enough to be above the characters below him.

His frame data is overall fine, its just that the moves that are fast really aren't that great for much
Fair has less range than 9b and is also unsafe on hit at low percents, not to mention that followups out of fair are rather strict due to the landing lag they gave it for some reason
Bair now is like one of his only good moves, fast, decently disjointed, but it has little use outside of killing
Nair is fast but only barely disjointed, making it easy to trade with. It's also not that hard to sdi out of the move as well as the fact that landing nair is unsafe on hit for ages.
Nair utilt really isnt great and if you're gonna nair > utilt why not just nair > grab which is way better reward cause utilt followups suck now
Thing with Dthrow being so good at damage racking is the fact that BM really has no better option than to go for the guarenteed 20% because the rest of his grabs all suck. Bthrow isnt a great killthrow, Fthrow is only for positioning, and uthrow really isnt worth going for due to the fact that your best followup option is a move that barely works correctly in Uair. They also do way way less damage than Dthrow, so all in all BM's Dthrow really doesnt make his grab game good, especially compared to 80% of the characters in this game
Sure his ledge trap game with moves like Fsmash and Thundaga, as well as his edgeguarding is great, but this is heavily offset by his rather poor neutral game, sub par zoning and movement, and poor disadvantage state.


Zero Suit Samus's recovery is completely glitched to the point where it is impossible for her to recover from under the stage and for a tether recovery it has pretty horrendous distance. A lot of her combo follow ups and setups like Up-Special are unsafe on hit in many situations so they honestly aren't that threatening.

ZSS recovery is a real hinderance to her, and im not going to hide that. Side Special is a lot more consistant for recovering compared to Up Special which is a slight factor, Though it doesnt help that losing her double jump essentially kills her offstage. But really her combo game is very good, and Up Special really isnt
a part of it, Nair, Fair and Uair in particular are all amazing for combos, and moves such as Dtilt, landing first hit Fair and Nair all make really effective neutral options with a lot of coverage and combo potential.


Bandana Dee does have some more kill setups than he did before especially with D-Air, however it still isn't great and he still is sort of a glass cannon without fire power. Though gotta give credit where credit is due with his super good defensive game and retreating game with disjoints.

At the moment BDee is less of a glass cannon and more of a paper cannon, moves like Uair, Fair and Dair are all great but his main problem is his awful disadvantage, besides that he's got all the tools to be a capable mid tier.

Pit's range is actually still decent and disjointed, it's just the multihits that f**k it up. Also Down-Smash and Up-Air are definitely good kill options and being a swordie fundamentally puts him at least above bottom 5.

I'm gonna say it right now
Pit's range is laughable, for a character that's ment to have disjoints they all are pretty garbage.
Pit doesnt have range, sure some of his hitboxes are slightly disjointed, but due to both his hurtbox and the speed of his moves, combined with the fact that his multihits don't work correctly, this all really isnt worth it.
Dsmash, despite it's startup is one of his only good kill options, Uair isnt great especially due to the multihit problem.
Like even with his "range" I cant see him above five characters right now.
Oh also did I forget to mention that his disadvantage state is beyond awful? Because it really is, no real combo breaker move, awful defensive options and a recovery that leaves him completely open while also not snapping to ledge. Truely terrible.


The issue with Sora is the fact that outside of disjoints and having a good combo game and I guess a couple of good individual moves, he honestly lacks any other real advantages which makes him somewhat underwhelming.

Sora has a bit more than that going for him, like his defensive options in jab 1 and Bair make him difficult to approach, along with the fact his moveset gives him a lot of versatility in many situations.
He's also got above average frame data for the most part despite being a swordie, so his boxing game up close is stronger than you'd think.


Bowser at least has a top tier grab range and he can abuse shieldpoking a lot with D-Air which makes his neutral not as bad as it actually seems despite having some of the worst landing options in the game and for being super slow. He also has some pretty decent yet strict kill confirms that gives him the ability to take stocks at 70% near consistently.

Thing with bowser is that, sure his advantage state is scary and his kill confirms can be pretty hard to deal with, but his movement is among the worst in the game, and that hurts him doing literal everything. Shieldpoking with Dair is okay until you realise that you're committing to jumping as Bowser, a character with the worst jumpsquat in the game as well pretty bad air mobility, which makes this option only really great when you have the opponent in the corner.
My idea of Bowser falling is mainly due to his speed and sub par defensive options, he can get camped forever or when characters open him up he can't get back to neutral.


Ness is probably gonna drop

He's defs dropping but it wont be too severe a drop, like I can't see him being worse than like Bdee even without the chaingrab.

The Spacies are still good as despite not having disjoints and for being combo food with a gimpable recovery, they still have a really good neutral with a fantastic punish game with an unparalleled pressure game along with them having stupidly good frame data (Especially fox) along with Fox having insane mobility and Falco having his insane edge guarding game. The fact that a lot of their moves are hard to punish in general and how they can constantly overwhelm their opponents easily makes them still an upper high tier charcater.

Yeah I'm not denying that they still have their advantages, and they are definitely high tier characters, but I still think people really overrate them as characters. Especially since their advantages have been getting worse and worse while they still maintain their severe weaknesses.
Thing is most of what you said applies for Fox moreso than Falco IMO
IMO Falco and Sheik are the two most overrated characters in this game


Goku would of been top 10 if his frame data wasn't so below average. If you've actually been to the game's files then you'd realize how actually bad goku's frame data is while also having range issues.

Goku's frame data isn't great sure but he's got so much stuff going for him, between his combo game, one of the best disadvantage states due to Instant Transmission, and overall solid killpower. He doesnt really need the range of swordies and the like because his hitboxes overall are fairly large and he has Ki Blasts to do all the spacing and neutral game pressure he could need.

Isaac is honestly a lot lower as the new mechanics screwed up his defensive game and he pretty much has the worst frame data in the game making his ability to be rushed down way too apparent compared to 1.0.2

The projectile overhall definitely made him much worse, though he still has very unique tools and options, his advantage state is still great even with a weaker neutral (which isnt even a problem for a good chunk of his matchups), one of the best high recoveries in the game and solid kill power all around.

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Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:39 pm
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Corvid Crow wrote:
playridise wrote:

Black Mage's Frame Data is a lot better than you may think, but i'm too lazy to go into the game's files but trust me it's pretty damn good. Moves like F-Air, N-Air, possibly B-Air (Technically disjointed), etc. are all fast disjointed moves. Eventhough his disjoints aren't spectacular, at least it is something. D-Throw dealing 20% is kind of dumb to be fair, and N-Air to Up-Tilt strings are you know, a thing that exists. His ability to ledge trap and just cover every ledge option with F-Smash is noteworthy. He may not be too spectacular, however his strengths are at least enough to make him functional enough to be above the characters below him.

His frame data is overall fine, its just that the moves that are fast really aren't that great for much
Fair has less range than 9b and is also unsafe on hit at low percents, not to mention that followups out of fair are rather strict due to the landing lag they gave it for some reason
Bair now is like one of his only good moves, fast, decently disjointed, but it has little use outside of killing
Nair is fast but only barely disjointed, making it easy to trade with. It's also not that hard to sdi out of the move as well as the fact that landing nair is unsafe on hit for ages.
Nair utilt really isnt great and if you're gonna nair > utilt why not just nair > grab which is way better reward cause utilt followups suck now
Thing with Dthrow being so good at damage racking is the fact that BM really has no better option than to go for the guarenteed 20% because the rest of his grabs all suck. Bthrow isnt a great killthrow, Fthrow is only for positioning, and uthrow really isnt worth going for due to the fact that your best followup option is a move that barely works correctly in Uair. They also do way way less damage than Dthrow, so all in all BM's Dthrow really doesnt make his grab game good, especially compared to 80% of the characters in this game
Sure his ledge trap game with moves like Fsmash and Thundaga, as well as his edgeguarding is great, but this is heavily offset by his rather poor neutral game, sub par zoning and movement, and poor disadvantage state.


Zero Suit Samus's recovery is completely glitched to the point where it is impossible for her to recover from under the stage and for a tether recovery it has pretty horrendous distance. A lot of her combo follow ups and setups like Up-Special are unsafe on hit in many situations so they honestly aren't that threatening.

ZSS recovery is a real hinderance to her, and im not going to hide that. Side Special is a lot more consistant for recovering compared to Up Special which is a slight factor, Though it doesnt help that losing her double jump essentially kills her offstage. But really her combo game is very good, and Up Special really isnt
a part of it, Nair, Fair and Uair in particular are all amazing for combos, and moves such as Dtilt, landing first hit Fair and Nair all make really effective neutral options with a lot of coverage and combo potential.


Bandana Dee does have some more kill setups than he did before especially with D-Air, however it still isn't great and he still is sort of a glass cannon without fire power. Though gotta give credit where credit is due with his super good defensive game and retreating game with disjoints.

At the moment BDee is less of a glass cannon and more of a paper cannon, moves like Uair, Fair and Dair are all great but his main problem is his awful disadvantage, besides that he's got all the tools to be a capable mid tier.

Pit's range is actually still decent and disjointed, it's just the multihits that f**k it up. Also Down-Smash and Up-Air are definitely good kill options and being a swordie fundamentally puts him at least above bottom 5.

I'm gonna say it right now
Pit's range is laughable, for a character that's ment to have disjoints they all are pretty garbage.
Pit doesnt have range, sure some of his hitboxes are slightly disjointed, but due to both his hurtbox and the speed of his moves, combined with the fact that his multihits don't work correctly, this all really isnt worth it.
Dsmash, despite it's startup is one of his only good kill options, Uair isnt great especially due to the multihit problem.
Like even with his "range" I cant see him above five characters right now.
Oh also did I forget to mention that his disadvantage state is beyond awful? Because it really is, no real combo breaker move, awful defensive options and a recovery that leaves him completely open while also not snapping to ledge. Truely terrible.


The issue with Sora is the fact that outside of disjoints and having a good combo game and I guess a couple of good individual moves, he honestly lacks any other real advantages which makes him somewhat underwhelming.

Sora has a bit more than that going for him, like his defensive options in jab 1 and Bair make him difficult to approach, along with the fact his moveset gives him a lot of versatility in many situations.
He's also got above average frame data for the most part despite being a swordie, so his boxing game up close is stronger than you'd think.


Bowser at least has a top tier grab range and he can abuse shieldpoking a lot with D-Air which makes his neutral not as bad as it actually seems despite having some of the worst landing options in the game and for being super slow. He also has some pretty decent yet strict kill confirms that gives him the ability to take stocks at 70% near consistently.

Thing with bowser is that, sure his advantage state is scary and his kill confirms can be pretty hard to deal with, but his movement is among the worst in the game, and that hurts him doing literal everything. Shieldpoking with Dair is okay until you realise that you're committing to jumping as Bowser, a character with the worst jumpsquat in the game as well pretty bad air mobility, which makes this option only really great when you have the opponent in the corner.
My idea of Bowser falling is mainly due to his speed and sub par defensive options, he can get camped forever or when characters open him up he can't get back to neutral.


Ness is probably gonna drop

He's defs dropping but it wont be too severe a drop, like I can't see him being worse than like Bdee even without the chaingrab.

The Spacies are still good as despite not having disjoints and for being combo food with a gimpable recovery, they still have a really good neutral with a fantastic punish game with an unparalleled pressure game along with them having stupidly good frame data (Especially fox) along with Fox having insane mobility and Falco having his insane edge guarding game. The fact that a lot of their moves are hard to punish in general and how they can constantly overwhelm their opponents easily makes them still an upper high tier charcater.

Yeah I'm not denying that they still have their advantages, and they are definitely high tier characters, but I still think people really overrate them as characters. Especially since their advantages have been getting worse and worse while they still maintain their severe weaknesses.
Thing is most of what you said applies for Fox moreso than Falco IMO
IMO Falco and Sheik are the two most overrated characters in this game


Goku would of been top 10 if his frame data wasn't so below average. If you've actually been to the game's files then you'd realize how actually bad goku's frame data is while also having range issues.

Goku's frame data isn't great sure but he's got so much stuff going for him, between his combo game, one of the best disadvantage states due to Instant Transmission, and overall solid killpower. He doesnt really need the range of swordies and the like because his hitboxes overall are fairly large and he has Ki Blasts to do all the spacing and neutral game pressure he could need.

Isaac is honestly a lot lower as the new mechanics screwed up his defensive game and he pretty much has the worst frame data in the game making his ability to be rushed down way too apparent compared to 1.0.2

The projectile overhall definitely made him much worse, though he still has very unique tools and options, his advantage state is still great even with a weaker neutral (which isnt even a problem for a good chunk of his matchups), one of the best high recoveries in the game and solid kill power all around.


Regarding Black Mage, I understand your point. One thing to note is that the neutral game tends to be more player based rather than character based just fyi. I placed BM out of bottom 10 simply because I feel like the characters below him just have it worse simply put and have an even worse disadvantage state.

Like ZSS does have a good combo game, and it does place her at least in Upper Low tier. However given how bad her recovery is, it honestly makes it so one neutral == death and ZSS's neutral is pretty average along with the neutral game tending to be more playerbased which pretty much means that ZSS can't really consistently do well.

Oh and I thought that you meant that Bandana Dee was like high tier or something lol. Yea Bandana Dee is the definition of a mid tier character. I only placed him in the bottom of upper mid tier on my tier list so I didn't have to put him in the same tier as bowser.

Actually by going through the game files, Pit's range is definitely not great but it still is pretty adequate and the hitbox sizes are actually quite reasonable, it'sj ust how easy to SDI out of they are. Up-Air is a multihit that's pretty hard to escape out of however just fyi. D-Smash is useful for tech chasing opportunities given the 10 (20 in 60fps) frame window for punishing most tech rolls making D-Smash useful for killing in a lot of scenarios like that along with covering quite a bit of ledge options at the same time. To be honest I still think there are definitely characters worse than him, especially in terms of matchups.

Sora's frame data is actually not that good, it's a lot worse than it actually looks. I don't have much to say about Sora but he's pretty much still a mid tier character plain and simple.

Bowser's mobility is definitely trash, but at least his grab is super disjointed and given that it's his main tool in neutral, that at least helps bowser a ton and his general range at least helps him cover the distance that would of been covered with mobility. Also Bowser's Defensive options are good just fyi, Up-Special overall covers a lot of distance and can be ledge cancelled and is a fantastic move OoS. Bowser also has access to a fantastic ledge guarding game in the form of B-Air as well. One thing to note is for empty hopping you must use N-AIr as it has less landing lag than landing normally. Bowser's landing would still be kinda bad even with that tip but it definitely helps him a lot in the long run while also having a free hitbox everytime he lands making it possible for Bowser to actually jump around and mix up with D-Air.

Falco still has a lot of strengths that Fox has besides his absurd mobility and having potentially weaker frame data. However Falco has a better overall pressure game and honestly has some of the best edge guarding in the game which btw for falco is a reliable way to secure stocks. Falco is more about forcing the opponent to approach with his lasers to make up for his lack of mobility which is an effective strategy. Like you said, they are High tier (Upper High tier in my book). However how exactly are their advantage state getting weaker and weaker?

Goku's frame data isn't just not good, it's actually really bad. In fact, Goku has by far the worst frame data out of all of the non-disjointed characters outside of characters like Bowser. I won't get into specifics onto how bad they are so I don't get bamboozled by mcleod, but his frame data is almost on par with Link when it comes to his non-unpunishable moves (So no D-Tilt lol). Bad frame data and range issues are kind of a bad combination to have and it overall is enough to put Goku as an only top 15 character instead of 10.

The issue with Isaac was that back then, he was honestly only high tier because his defensive game was unparallel. He had such good spacing tools that couldn't be combatted with lower tiers. With those tools now being laggy and tradeable, Isaac honestly lacks what most swordfighters have, and that is the ability to always win the trade. Most of the moves that involve his sword are laggy and are just not that great in general and having the worst frame data in the game is a huge problem. Also his recovery is pretty gimpable despite its decent distance either way and his neutral became from good to relatively underwhelming with him having to use Move which may force a reaction, however its slow and makes him prone to being rushed down. Isaac is definitely just a mid tier, period.

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Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:17 pm
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tfw made a new account because you can't get in your old one 8-)

I haven't played the game in a long time, but I was in the mood to make an SSF2 TL again, so I loaded up the game, and drew an opinion of some characters, which are represented on this list.

I mean, it is only V1, and I do intend to change things in the future. :smile:

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So, a quick couple of things that I may or may not change:

:goku: I've a feeling he's a tad too high, his frame data is iffy, as is his range. Probably gonna drop him down the list a bit. Who knows.

:sonic: I don't know, man. Maybe it's just main bias, but I think Sonic is a little better than most make him out to be. I think I will bump him down a spot or two. Nair is good and his neutral is okay, but that's about it. But I will be damned if he isn't fun to play.

:luigi: Okay yeah Luigi's trash. But I don't think he's trash enough of a character to be the worst, but he sure as hell is close.

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Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:15 pm
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TheDiamondJoyride wrote:
tfw made a new account because you can't get in your old one 8-)

I haven't played the game in a long time, but I was in the mood to make an SSF2 TL again, so I loaded up the game, and drew an opinion of some characters, which are represented on this list.

I mean, it is only V1, and I do intend to change things in the future. :smile:

[ Image ]

So, a quick couple of things that I may or may not change:

:goku: I've a feeling he's a tad too high, his frame data is iffy, as is his range. Probably gonna drop him down the list a bit. Who knows.

:sonic: I don't know, man. Maybe it's just main bias, but I think Sonic is a little better than most make him out to be. I think I will bump him down a spot or two. Nair is good and his neutral is okay, but that's about it. But I will be damned if he isn't fun to play.

:luigi: Okay yeah Luigi's trash. But I don't think he's trash enough of a character to be the worst, but he sure as hell is close.


Why is luigi so high though? Also Samus should be in the same tier as Tails. Goku is fine he doesn't need to be lower, his flaws just puts him out of top 10, etc.

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Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 pm
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My personal tier list right here Image

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Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 pm
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