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Princess Zelda 
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Side-B can actually be edge-cancelled which can be used for more follow ups, though I guess it will be pretty rare to see.

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Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:03 am
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Not feeling these 50/50 guesses with her Up-Special. It takes away so much intriguing critical-thinking in neutral-play with Zelda because YOLO a teleport in neutral, and the fear it instill on the opponent when are at kill-percents. When the opponent is under pressure while airborne and are forced to land, you can easily frame-traps them, blowing them off stage. And there isn't a great rewarding feeling when you do a teleport mix-up and it easily kills / sets up for a kill, or when you telport down-forward from center stage to overlap the ledge in a massive hitbox to block recoveries. It's too simplistic. Prehaps if the hitbox was smaller, or a sweetspot in the direct center of the wind-gust where her body is, and a direct reappearance for a kill on top of an opponent has to be precise. It just feels very dull and empty at the moment. Farore could be something more complementary to her SSF2 playstyle, and not be a Smash-4 attribute.

Din's isn't my cup of tea either. It a more consistent kill move on an off-stage opponent than in v0.9b. But I think there's honestly still a major design flaw with the move; because Zelda can easily get her opponent off-stage with high-knockback moves (Lightning-Kick, Throws, Dsmash), Din's is 95% of the time the go-to follow-up to try to seal a stock with a off-stage. A successful hit opens up the potential for another Din's attempt. There's rare moments where you have to put yourself near the ledge ad actually edge-guard. So her options lead to optimal-play with her feeling very repetitively at the moment. - I think it might be more thrilling to make her entire Din's hit-box always knock towards her. It's already tricky to guess/react opponent DI when they fly towards your direction. It'll make for more exciting follow-ups and sensational moments when successfully making full-screen confirms, and not leave her feels too simplistic/polarized. It also would add to her archetype of being a wall/anti-zoner; having a reflect, teleport, and having an aiming-tool that pulls opponent towards.

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Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:28 pm
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Are you asking for Zelda nerfs?

Because Zelda already lost some kill confirms and can no longer kill as early compared to 9b

And Zelda isn't dominating the metagame anyway, especially when Shiek's just a better character

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Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:42 am
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Just saying, you dont have to be top tier to get your silly stuff removed - just see 0.9b Bomberman. If it doesnt sit well design-wise thats enough of a reason.


I agree with Zalos wishlist btw. Didnt Dins use to pull opponents in back in 0.9b?

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Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:24 pm
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theres a ton of angles where dins just doesnt work bc it curves slowly but moves quickly, plus they can just AD through it lol. upb being -7 on shield is pretty glaring, you really shouldn't be throwing it out willy nilly in neutral unless your opponent isnt familiar with the mu. the objective was to make it useful for those foe-landing frame traps only, maybe the occasional elevator

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Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:50 pm
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Up B seems almost always safe on shield because of the shield knockback. It's only unsafe against tether grabs and slideoff aerials. Of course they can spotdodge/roll instead.

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Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:41 pm
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Jan_Solo wrote:
Are you asking for Zelda nerfs?

Because Zelda already lost some kill confirms and can no longer kill as early compared to 9b

And Zelda isn't dominating the metagame anyway, especially when Shiek's just a better character
Would rarely have a character be nerfed, but fun than be viable and polarizing.

But neither of my suggestion are really nerfs. What I'm really asking for is just rearranging her skill-requirements in her playstyle. Because she has some really simple tactics somewhat overshadow her more impressive, but still excellent abilites. Really slight stuff that when tweaked would really polish her playstyle.

Just because a character isn't largely used, or making appearance in every top-8, does not mean they don't have flaws within their design (v0.9b's Samus, Kirby, Naruto, Pikachu).

I don't see how Sheik is better than Zelda right now. v0.9b Zelda was a character good at everything but mobility. v0.9b Sheik was a character good at only a hand full of things; the main one being simple setups in only a 2-3 Fair for a kill as low as 60%. Can Zelda still kills spacies/heavy-weight off just a grab and gives hell to any character slower/short-range than her. Sheik is just very well-rounded and everything good about her is plainly laid out, making her much easier use, thus perceivably better.

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theres a ton of angles where dins just doesnt work bc it curves slowly but moves quickly, plus they can just AD through it lol. upb being -7 on shield is pretty glaring, you really shouldn't be throwing it out willy nilly in neutral unless your opponent isnt familiar with the mu. the objective was to make it useful for those foe-landing frame traps only, maybe the occasional elevator
I think your underestimating how well Din's can be aimed. You can always adjust your positon, like buff a dash or short-hop jump-backward with a Din's to give yourself more area to arc the Din's, plus makes it travel a bit further to increase its hit-box size. I also pointed out forcing the opponent to air-dodge by using Dins to make them recovery from lower heights; putting them in a much more favorable position to edgeguard them, or an easier spot to hit them with another Din's.

And I said frame-traps when it came to Farore mix-ups. There's plenty of moments on landing where you can't do any options because you'll be beaten by Farore's lingering hit-box; not enough time/room to drift away, landing mid air-dodging = suffer vulnerable landing-lag, covering multiple a tech options with a well spaced Farore, ledge sweetspot teleports from mid-screen to deny recoveries, etc.). If you are about to get caught without a jump and fall into a frame-trap, you can Shine, Cape, Haste, etc., to stall just above her reappearance hit-box and punish. But if she just Short-Hops Farore to make the her teleport just above the ground, the extreme height raises the hit-box, forcing a air-stall move to be performed earlier. At that height, Zelda is at closer frame-equality to do a defensive option to avoid her opponent's falling-attack punish.

When you're on the receiving end of these mix-up, it feels many layers like you have to make some precise decision. But all Zelda has to do is slightly delay an input and she now frame-traps two more decisions you probably were thinking of choosing.

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Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:10 am
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Up B seems almost always safe on shield because of the shield knockback

Knockback or not...
If you play against top players who is familiar with the MU.. u are punished if it ends on the shield! (and not a small punishment...)

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What I'm really asking for is just rearranging her skill-requirements in her playstyle. Because she has some really simple tactics

The game in the whole is simple (We are not in sf4).

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Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:53 pm
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Emma wrote:
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What I'm really asking for is just rearranging her skill-requirements in her playstyle. Because she has some really simple tactics

The game in the whole is simple (We are not in sf4).
Duh, the game is simplet: it's Smash. What I'm saying is adjust some of her strengths slightly to some of her better, more creative areas so that her playstyle; naturally encouraging tactics that are fun to do, fun to fight against, and fun to watch as a viewer.


(Also, SF4 get way more complex and offensive encouragin after 2012 edition. Them 1-frame links ain't free.)

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Last edited by Zalozis on Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:45 pm
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Zalozis wrote:
Emma wrote:
Quote:
What I'm really asking for is just rearranging her skill-requirements in her playstyle. Because she has some really simple tactics

The game in the whole is simple (We are not in sf4).
Duh the game is simple. It's Smash. What I'm saying is adjust some of her strenghts slightly to some of her better, more creative areas so she that her playstyle natural encourage tactics that are fun to do, fun to fight against, and fun to watch as a viewer.


(Also, SF4 get way more complex and offensive encouragin after 2012 edition. Them 1-frame links ain't free.)


After playing a bit against your Zelda, I would certainly agree here. It's not a terribly fun MU to run around waiting for Up-B to punish, and when you do something unsafe or have a vulnerable recovery, you're basically screwed out of being able to do anything. That hitbox is BIG with fat priority.


Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:26 pm
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I realize now that if you're on the recieving end of the mix-up, don't panic air-dodge. Best thing to do is throw out a lingering move. It seemed unlikley before, but you actually can consistently hit her on reappearing, even if you're at the edge of the smoke. May need to do a short tutorial on Zelda. By god, this character so sick. I'm realizing new things with her every day I play.

But nobody freaking plays this girl, and it's a crime she's considered mid-tier. Her punish game has the honest potential to be more lethal than in v0.9b because of Din and Farore.

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Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:49 am
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It's nice but no DI in the right direction.

Just DI
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Falcon can probably do the same on Zelda (without DI / with DI in the wrong direction).

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Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:25 am
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Who knew that DI could change specific combos? All this time I thought all I had to do was repeat that sequence over and over again!

All joking aside, Zelda has arguably the best DI traps in the game, so it's especially painful to comment on that here. There a tons of situations where she can either do a launcher or a finisher, and if you DI the launcher correctly you die at 40%, and if you DI the strong hit you get comboed onstage. Fair and bair can combo into themselves when DIed in and kill really early when DIed away.

Also, dash attack isn't reactable, especially online. Hitting that DI input requires a read of some sort.

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Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:17 pm
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Exactly. DI'ng-Away Dash-Attack just leads to Dash-Grab, Sweetspot-Fair, another Dash-Attack. That what makes Zelda's DI-trap so deadly: no matter how you DI, she can react to every option you try. She can zero-to-death off a Jab-starter. That was a thing with v0.9b Zelda and it's still a thing in Beta.

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Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:48 pm
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Who knew that DI could change specific combos? All this time I thought all I had to do was repeat that sequence over and over again!

All joking aside

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Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:42 am
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