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Tails 
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Discuss Tails specific game-play here.

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Mon May 29, 2017 1:46 pm
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i take back any bad thing i said about tails sprite



except his nose in his idle



joking aside im really loving his new side b, and the hover mechanic is a lot of fun

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Mon May 29, 2017 10:15 pm
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I still don't really like it compared to others but it's pretty good, especially in the animation department.

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Mon May 29, 2017 10:17 pm
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SIDE B INTESTIFIES :gamer:

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Mains: :tails: :peach:


Tue May 30, 2017 3:41 am
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FINALLY
Rythm twist is Out of Tails Moveset!

But, I wonder if Tails still have the 9b Dash techniques…


Tue May 30, 2017 8:58 am
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So, first impressions... :tails: looks nice this version. Might actually pick him up againt together with Chibi, unless someone finds a way to make MK entertaining again :chibirobo:


New USmash is... weird regarding the animation, but if its stronger Ill take that :pikachu:

Tailsdash is still possible, but it feels like you cant act out of it as fast as you could in 0.9b. Tails overall feels... clunkier, although I believe his actual speed is the same (?)

The biggest nerf first: Tails can no longer turn around by using a double jump. What he can do now is use a jump (jump count is now down to three midair jumps, any jump attempt afterwards initiates the hover), hold jump to start hovering and then turn around. Needless to say, this method is incredibly slow and makes Fair --> Bair edgeguards and UThrow --> Bair, one of Tails's strongest KO tools a thing of the past. You can start a hover without burning a jump by holding jump as you jump from the ground, but thats the only way - running off a ledge does not work sadly. UThrow to Fair/Uair is still a thing, but Uair at least seems to have lost some of its knockback.

New DThrow seems similar to the old one, so not that great. New BThrow seems to have some KO power though, and Tails definetly can live with a KO throw now that his old throw setup was nerfed. Recovery was also "nerfed" in the sense that Spindash now falls a lot faster in the air (Ill talk about Bair later), but we still have that new Hover to play around with.

Not gonna say much about Airlift for now, although I wish you could angle the little leap to some extent.


The main thing Id like to talk about is Bair though. Bair now moves Tails backwards a bit upon startup, then launches him forward as usual (negating any previous momentum, so this move is both a bad idea for recovering and momentum cancelling). It still is arguably Tails's most useful KO option as far as I can tell after 10 minutes in Training Mode, but it has gained a useful application.

Remember how I said that using Bair now moves you backwards first? Well, if you time a Bair just before landing, Tails bounces backwards a little bit instead of the regular animation. I would like to call that the Bair Bounce for now. I can see that little trick being quite useful for microspacing and baiting/whiff punishing and such. This bounce can be cancelled by any aerial (including another Bair, but I cant tell for sure yet if you can link that into another Bair Bounce - Id say No though if I had to), Up Special, Airlift, and most importantly, Spindash. This allows Tails to Bair Bounce backwards for spacing himself a little further backwards before initiating a Tailsdash. I cant tell if this tech is going to be super niche or incredibly crucial to Beta Tails yet, but at the very least it is something to keep in mind if you need that little extra space on your Tailsdash.



EDIT: So I dont know what exactly what was done to Bair or why it was done, but it feels... iffy to say the least now. Spacing it feels like a guess now, and I have no real idea on how the move actually hits people now. May be just because Im not used to it quite yet, but I kinda want to know what caused that momentum change.

The other thing that irks me (and does so much much more) are the changes to Tails's jump mechanics. In a way that goes against every other multijumper in this game, Smash Bros. as a whole and how Tails behaved in earlier versions, turning around in the air by using a jump is not possible anymore, which effectively kills Fair --> Bair setups to edgeguard people or generally anything into Bair (UThrow to Bair perhaps being the biggest loss). This is actually a much bigger deal than I thought it would be, and it annoys me to no end. Why was this changed? If it was to make Tails stand out more, I am afraid that backfired in terms of functionality. To make things even more obscure, Tails can turn around by using his hover (which requires burning a jump if the hover was not initiated right away, something that also kinda irks me. Maybe let us use it by holding down+jump ala Peach/Gou float?). This once again sticks out, as other characters with a similar mechanic (Peach and Goku) are not able to do that in this game (or any other game if only Peach is considered). Maybe its just me, and maybe I just need to git gud and get used to it, but I really dont like these two mechancis in general. Is there any chance this may be reversed in a future update to make Tails fit in more in comparism to other characters with similar traits?

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Tue May 30, 2017 12:28 pm
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Sweet mother of pancakes, I can't BELIEVE how difficult I'm finding Tails to be just because he can't turn around during his flight pattern.

Also, going to miss his old U-Smash and D-Throw.


Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:27 pm
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Not rly missing his old D-throw... But I wish his new up smash was his up-throw and another thing was his u-smash. Maybe his current up tilt, and his new up tilt would be PM Sonic's U-tilt...

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Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:17 pm
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A new patch just released! Many balance and a few design changes were made to Tails. Here's a rundown of what's changed:

--------------------------

-Pummel damage increased. (1% -> 1.5%)

-Jab 1 hitbox size increased (slightly more disjoint, covers more of him).

-Dash Attack's second hit hitbox size covers more of him.

-Forward Tilt hitbox size covers more vertical space.

-Forward Smash's hitbox now covers more of him, is slightly more disjointed.
-Forward Smash active frames increased. (1 -> 2)

-Up Smash startup reduced. (8 -> 6)
-Up Smash endlag reduced. (13 -> 12)
-Up Smash final hit damage increased.
-Up Smash final hit knockback angle changed. (90 -> 85)
-Up Smash final hit base knockback increased. (55 -> 56)
-Up Smash final hit knockback growth increased. (120 -> 124)
-Up Smash multihit now traps characters a lot better.
-Up Smash's traction reduced greatly. Now keeps a lot of momentum when used, such as when dashing.
-Up Smash loses momentum when hits are landed, to allow you to stop on opponents.
-Up Smash now allows you to turn around during the first 4 frames of startup if you are pressing the opposite direction to where you are facing.

-Up Tilt endlag reduced. (10 -> 9)
-Up Tilt range increased. Can now reach characters standing on low platforms of most stages.

-Down Smash knockback angle lowered. (50 -> 38)
-Down Smash base knockback increased. (50 -> 54)
-Down Smash knockback growth lowered. (85,70 -> 80,64)
-Down Smash endlag reduced. (20 -> 19)
-Down Smash hitboxes tweaked.

-Grounded Neutral Special total frames reduced. (27 -> 26)

-Up Special travels noticeably further.

-Forward Air base knockback increased. (20 -> 26)

-Back Air base knockback increased. (30 -> 32)
-Back Air knockback growth increased. (105 -> 108)
-Back Air active frames increased. (8 -> 9)
-Back Air hitbox on first active frame made significantly larger.
-Back Air hitboxes cover more of Tails' body than before.
-Back Air movement reworked. Will pull back further if travelling backwards at the start of the attack. Will fly further forward if travelling forwards at the start of the attack.

-Forward Throw hitstun increased. (100% -> 112%)
-Forward Throw base knockback increased. (70 -> 75)

-Down Throw damage increased. (9 -> 12)
-Down Throw self-hitlag increased. (1 -> 3)
-Down Throw knockback angle raised. (60 -> 80)
-Down Throw knockback increased. (60 -> 72)
-Down Throw knockback growth increased. (80 -> 85)

-Grab range vertical range increased, and covers more of his body.
-Grab endlag reduced. (7 -> 6)

-Now turns around if holding the opposite direction when using a midair jump like all other characters with multiple jumps.


Last edited by Refurin on Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:42 pm
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Despite all these changes his nose still isn't fixed

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Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:36 am
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Hold on Ref, this counts as a buff, a nerf, or a balance?
(I hope It's a balance :V)


Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:53 am
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X-blaster 91 wrote:
Hold on Ref, this counts as a buff, a nerf, or a balance?
(I hope It's a balance :V)

Buff.


Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:22 am
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Bair doesnt feel awkward anymore, gives you much more control and is useful for recovery again? I can turn around in the air with a jump again? Holy s*** thats amazing. Not to mention the plethora of buffs Tails just got across the board of course. UTilt poking through plats is super nice, new USmash mechanics feel super natural (although idk what we can do with turnaround USmash just quite yet except for very situational close-to-the-blastzones-but-facing-the-wrong-way-scenarios). Not sure if the KB increase to Fair makes the move better or worse now, and from my initial 3 minutes of testing DThrow cant really combo anymore (damage buff is nice though), but thats as far as my nitpicking goes.


Now that we can actually turn around midair without having to Hover ever so slowly, UThrow -> Bair makes a glorious return - albeit a little different from 0.9b apparently. Due to Bair now stopping any momentum you had before using the move upon startup, the execution window for UThrow Bair to work got notably smaller, now being not nearly as "free" or "easy" as it used to be. This becomes especially apparent at higher percentages, where UThrow will send opponents a lot higher, especially against floaties for obvious reasons. But hey, its back, it works starting from low to kill percents, and its great to have back. Besides, even if floatier characters might be able to escape Bair by DIing straight up, this is where the Uair mixup comes into play, which is a very potent killer move in its own right.


I might actually drop Bowser now, Tails just feels to good now :tails:

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Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:57 am
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TSF|Skylar wrote:
new USmash mechanics feel super natural (although idk what we can do with turnaround USmash just quite yet except for very situational close-to-the-blastzones-but-facing-the-wrong-way-scenarios).

from my initial 3 minutes of testing DThrow cant really combo anymore (damage buff is nice though)
The main purpose of the change with being able to turn around with up smash is that he can now hit in front of him while moving forwards again, similarly to how he could in 0.9b.

Dthrow is less of a combo tool now, for sure, though it's still possible in some scenarios. The changes were made to it due to how much overlap fthrow and dthrow had in use, and dthrow is now more of a kill throw. As Tails has his bthrow which is pretty effective against faster falling characters, his new, powerful vertically-launching dthrow is much more effective against floatier, light characters.

Glad to see that the character functions better now, too.


Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:14 am
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Somehow this little guy got even more fun

I love it :chibirobo:

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Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:39 pm
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