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TSF|Skylar wrote:
A move shouldnt heal 30% in general period. That is quite a large chunk of health that can easily change the entire momentum of a match. Magnet still locks opponents in place for more than two seconds, which is plenty of time to either deal tons of damage and/or guarantee a kill. The cooldown isnt the problem, the moves just do way too much.

Why do you want Flowmotion to be replaced entirely anyways? The move worked fine before 1.0.3, and Im pretty certain that it can work again properly in the future.


Oh yeah, because noone has mentioned it yet: Flowmotion is arguably the worst move in the game now. Flowmo Back and Forward do not work at all anymore and Sora just does nothing/zooms past the opponent respectively. Flowmo Down is... weird. Sometimes you need to do a Flowmo Up Cancel into Flowmo Down to get it to work, sometimes Flowmo Down just works on its own. Flowmo Up is still working. Same for Neutral Flowmo, but that one got increased ending lag which makes Neutral Flowmo -> Fire, one of Soras key kill confirms, incredibly hard to pull off and basically removes it entirely if the opponent is wary. Fix plz

Oh, and FSmash is still dumb. Neato.


Okay, so how about 15% healing for Cure and a 1.5 second pull for Magnet? Would that be at least somewhat more reasonable?

Now...
The reason I want Flowmotion to be replaced entirely is because it's been inconsistent since day 1 of Beta. Attacks didn't link up properly and some of the hits on the multi-hit moves oft missed as a result of it; you could also see that in Lloyd's Tempest back then, too. However, as of this version, I don't think it's worth it to keep Flowmotion if problems like these can arise within the game, especially off of a few simple changes to the characters themselves.

Flowmotion was a neat little gimmick to try out back in 9b, but I think it's time to just replace it if there's no way to simply rework it into a better move. However, there are some rework concepts I might share later.

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Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:50 pm
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Or you can fix it, just like how a certain person who favored the tweezers is enjoying the new power of the "Plug of Justice" post-buff

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Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:21 am
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They could change Flowmotion to make it actually function like it does in Dream Drop Distance, and then require you use a directional input or button press to use it. Sora could spin around the enemy for 1.5 to 2 seconds before requiring an input or button press, and of course, the command grab always assumes Sora is in front of the opponent before he attacks.

[Also, personally, I think Flowmotion should allow Sora to wall jump quite high.]

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Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:04 pm
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Why exactly? To make it "more canon"? I like the simpler ways of things, no need for complicated press this and that to make this do that after this happening

Although I would like making it always a Command Grab at the start which should decrease the chances of escape

Also, I think they'd have to implement Wall Jumping in general first and I think Sora should just be able to Wall Jump naturally Idk

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Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:07 am
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Jan_Solo wrote:
Why exactly? To make it "more canon"? I like the simpler ways of things, no need for complicated press this and that to make this do that after this happening

Although I would like making it always a Command Grab at the start which should decrease the chances of escape

Also, I think they'd have to implement Wall Jumping in general first and I think Sora should just be able to Wall Jump naturally Idk


The addition of Flowmotion letting Sora twirl around the opponent before an input would act like the command grab itself, and using inputs within a certain window of time instead of instantaneously gives players leniency and better control over what they're doing. It's got the same complexity as what the current one down, but is more of a convenience/quality of life change.

Also, they did implement wall jumping, but it was apparently flawed. I'm certain, however, if wall jumping is revised, Sora may be able to get it.

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Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:59 pm
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Honestly I think the only touch ups Sora needs right now is to make his Flowmotion function better by actual hitting the opponent most of the time and trapping them as well, as I assume it's supposed to


Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:39 pm
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Flowmotion should really just be a command grab to make things and maybe even the coding easier

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Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:03 am
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Why doesn't Sora have the same freedom with his side special like Pit does?

Why is it that Sora is the only one cursed with SDing off stage with his side special?

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Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:47 pm
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JalStar wrote:
Sora is the only one cursed with SDing off stage with his side special?

:captainfalcon:
:falco:
:fox:
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:wario:
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any other questions?

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Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:34 pm
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Don't think I'd count Yoshi. Definitely able to recover from a fall...

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Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 pm
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Wario, Sonic, and Meta Knight could potentially get back on the stage.

It depends on the location away from the stage, though.
Wario could get back on if he didn't jump off and fly off the stage

Sonic could use homing attack if he was able to cancel out and use it while the opponent is near the edge

Meta Knight jumps back a little bit after using Drill Rush.

Like I said, it depends. Luigi could SD if Misfire occurred, and he was at the edge.

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Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:46 pm
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Alright, so I've given Beta Sora a fair shake, after taking him as far as I could in 9b.

I'll say this.

I feel so much more sluggish with Beta Sora.

His neutral is somewhat worse than 9b was, which was one of the few redeeming factors that he had back then. The added kill power is nice, but really it should've been at least as powerful back in his 9b days, while also retaining his speed and frame data from the 9b days. It would've balanced him out near perfectly.

As it is now, he's been buffed for kill power, but his speed in neutral has taken what I feel is an unnecessary hit. He's basically like Trunks when he powered up against Cell. More muscle power, but not enough speed to really utilize it. I foresee him making it to be about low-mid tier in this particular update.

I'm a bit short on time, so I'll go a bit more in-depth when I get the chance.


Last edited by HalcyonDays on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:24 pm
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Alright, so regarding Beta Sora...I have mixed feelings about him.

He feels worse than his 9b iteration, and a lot of his moves have less utility, but added kill power.

I'm just gonna go move by move because I honestly am not sure where to start with this. Prepare for a long list of comparisons of move properties between Beta Sora and 9b Sora.

Jab: show
Jab is definitely better this time around. The new two-hit combo has just the right about of knockback on the second hit to where you can feasibly follow up with another attack if you can read the opponent's next move. The angle of both swings allows it to be an okay anti-air. It also is harder to SDI, especially in comparison to 9b's second hit, which had trouble connecting at times due to the low angle of the hitbox. Jab is just better this time.


F-Tilt: show
F-Tilt is pretty much the same. Not a move that I pull out often, both in beta or 9b.


Down-Tilt: show
Down-Tilt is also relatively similar to how it was in 9b. Has its uses every now and then, although the nerfs to side-b have made it less usable somewhat.


Up-Tilt: show
Up-tilt has received some very noticeable nerfs. It is now only a single-hit move, as opposed to two hits in 9b. Its range has been nerfed so it also cannot poke through certain platforms above Sora anymore, such as Smashville's or Battlefield's. This reduces Sora's ability to threaten opponents from underneath platforms.

This might also be due to the changes of the engine itself, but "sliding up-tilts" are also nerfed, in that you can't slide unless you allow a short period of time to pass between attack inputs. Even the slide distance itself has become worse, so you can't "follow" the opponent with sliding up-tilts like you could in 9b. I used this move a lot, so I feel as though this is one of the nerfs that makes him feel much worse to me personally.


Forward-Smash: show
Forward-Smash has received both a nerf to it's start-up lag, and a buff to it's killpower. Overall, I find I preferred the quicker start-up to the added kill-power. Back in 9b, if kept fresh, it could be a reliable move to throw out after crouch-cancel pivots. It may be personal preference, but I find it better to be able to hit reliably for slightly less killpower than to reduce the chances of hitting due to a slower start-up. I feel like this move has been nerfed.


Up-Smash: show
Up-Smash has been nerfed. Sora has lost what used to be a great kill-move in exchange for a move that sometimes kills off the side, or the corner blastzones, but is rather whacky with what trajectory it sends the opponent. The hitboxes that used to be on the sides of Sora back in 9b are also gone, so it's less reliable to connect now.

It also lost it's wind-box, which was actually situationally useful for both giving Sora a tiny bit of elbow room should the move miss, and also potentially preventing certain opponent's up-b's from reaching the ledge, such as Mario and Fox (though these were quite situational.)


Down-Smash: show
Down-Smash has received some nice buffs. It can actually kill off the sides now, though the trajectory can be rather unpredictable.


Neutral-Air: show
Neutral-Air has been improved to have an added hitbox behind him. Overall this move isn't one I used much, either now or in 9b. Perhaps I've overlooked this one as I could see it having some potential, but I usually prefer to throw out another move in neutral, since this move has some rather limited hit-box range for a sword-user, and a bit of a slow-start up to be really reliable.


Forward-Air: show
Forward-Air has received both buffs and nerfs. Overall, the added kill power can be helpful, so long as the move hasn't become too stale. However, the utility of the move has suffered a bit, since the swing now only covers the area in front of him. 9b's F-air had hitboxes both in front and behind him, and was a full somersault sword swing.


Down-Air: show
Down-Air feels slightly better than it did before. It sends the opponent at a pretty nice trajectory for a follow-up. Probably one of the better aerials to throw out in neutral.


Up-Air: show
Up-Air has been buffed with actual kill-power this time around, though not until the much higher percents past 150, usually. They also need to be somewhat towards the upper blast zone as well. Overall, it's received an okay buff.


Back-Air: show
Back-Air has been turned into a potential KO option. It feels a lot like forward-air, really, and feels bland. Same slow start-up, and around the same knock-back, but with less area for a hitbox. In terms of utility, 9b has it beat out by a mile. Back then, the move had multiple properties that allowed it to be a great combo move for racking up percents quickly with just the right amount of trajectory to let you follow up with another move.

It also allowed you to turn around in mid-air, which was especially helpful for setting up lagless Neutral-B's (man, I miss those...so flashy). This is another move that was fairly bread-and-butter for 9b Sora's combo game. Another move that I wish hadn't been changed so drastically.


Neutral-Special: show
Neutral-Special has been nerfed, due to the removal of the lagless variation. (In 9b, Sora could use a b-air and then use Neutral-B just before landing to negate the 'thrown' animation and begin moving around while the Keyblade was still spinning.)

I really, REALLY miss this. Made for some incredibly flashy set-ups back in 9b. I'm still rather salty at seeing it go, but I suppose that abusing an oversight like that may hurt the developer's intentions. Like wave-dashing, sort of. Right now, it's best usage is to sweet spot it at the ledge when they try to recover.


Side-special: show
Side-special has been nerfed pretty hard. Granted, some of the nerfs were called for, like being able to command grab someone out of shield back in 9b. Now it just kind of 'bumps' into their shield and puts Sora into a helpless state. The nerf that I have some real qualms over is the landing lag from using Flowmotion towards the ground. This removed a key aspect to Sora's neutral-game, as it gave some real sense of speed and more movement options in neutral.

Overall, I don't see why they added in the landing lag when having this move go ineffective on shields was a good enough nerf. Why punish someone for being able to accurately space the move into the ground just before it hits someone shield?

It also reduces Sora's ability to get back on stage. The move was already quite easy to edgeguard. Now, it probably isn't even necessary to edgeguard it so much, since shield's can negate it, and there's plenty of landing lag should you make it back on stage somehow.

Another, probably unknown nerf to side-b was that 9b Sora could use a downward flowmotion out of hitstun to go at an almost 45 degree angle towards the ground, rather than the near horizontal angle the move usually limits you to. It's a slight nerf, but it did give more options to counterattack someone or get back to stage more quickly. Overall, I feel the nerfs to this move hurt Sora pretty significantly.


Down-Special: show
Down-Special gives me mixed feelings. Perhaps I haven't spent enough time exploring the applications, but I kind of miss being able to poke someone near the top blast zone into a star-ko back in 9b with Thundaga. It was also a pretty good move for clearing room on-stage when you were trapped on the ledge. I'm sure there's a lot more applications with Firaga, Blizzaga, and the new Thundaga though. The ability to stall mid-air with Firaga and Blizzaga can potentially help with recoveries, and Thundaga seems like a good mid-air KO choice if you can find follow-ups into it. Probably the most interesting change to Beta Sora.


Up-Special: show
Up-Special has been nerfed hard. Aerial-Recovery hasn't really brought much to the table, in my opinion. It's now a glorified mid-air jump. Worse, because you can't really control the trajectory of it, other than to move upwards and forwards. The 'ability' to use any aerial you want out of it sounds kind of silly when that's pretty much what you're able to do out of jump. It's actually even worse in that there's still a fair amount of time between the start-up of Aerial-Recovery and when you can input an aerial.

Even worse, 9b's old Up-B, Finishing Leap pretty much gave you the ability to use any aerial you wanted out of it as well...but it was even FASTER at letting you do so. It also put out a hitbox that was actually a decent anti-air, and also had a pretty good trajectory for a follow-up with f-air, leading to some KO's.

Beta Sora's current Up-B is just all-out worse than his 9b's counterpart. The one redeeming factor that almost evens this all out is that you can now use Side-B after using Up-B. But if he could do that out of Finishing Leap...


Whew...that took a while.

Overall, I'd say that Sora can now actually use finishing kill-moves in neutral that he desperately needed back in 9b, but his combo game and neutral game have suffered somewhat both due to changes in the engine affecting his maneuverability, and certain moves such as sliding up-tilt and side-b receiving some nerfs.

This is just my opinion, but I feel like if Sora were to have these moves restored back to their previous 9b iterations, with the same engine properties, Sora may be able to play a bit better (and less stiff) while still not being overpowered.

    Up-Tilt
    Forward-Smash
    Up-Smash
    Forward-Air
    Back-Air
    Side-Special
    Up-Special (Finishing Leap, but with the added ability to use Flowmotion afterwards)

I decided not to include the lagless neutral-special glitch (despite how freaking amazing it was), due to the nature of it more than likely being an oversight of the developers, but MAN. It'd be awesome to have again.


Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:29 am
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One thing I will add about up tilt is that whilst it is single hit, it's now MUCH faster overall, so this can offset the damage slightly. I will agree on pretty much everything you said though. Also, Nair's linking is super unreliable.

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Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:52 pm
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TSF.Strife wrote:
One thing I will add about up tilt is that whilst it is single hit, it's now MUCH faster overall, so this can offset the damage slightly. I will agree on pretty much everything you said though. Also, Nair's linking is super unreliable.
True, it's faster in the sense that you can use another up-tilt much faster after the initial up-tilt but...

Overall though, I feel like being able to do that isn't 'that' beneficial in comparison to losing 9b up-tilt's sliding ability, and especially it's range. Being able to poke through platforms made Sora a real threat on stages like Battlefield or Smashville, and gave him an option to apply pressure in ways that he lost in current Beta.

And yeah, Nair still feels...I don't know. I feel like there's better aerials to throw out in neutral. You're right about Beta Nair's linking. The trajectory it sends opponents at feels almost random at times.

On another note, after experimenting with Beta Sora's Down-B...I can definitely see plenty of utility in there. Especially in conjunction with Flowmotion. Particularly the downwards and neutral variations. I'll make another post on it once I get the chance.


Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:55 pm
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