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Black Mage 
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I was gonna say something about Warp being not dumb... bbbuuuuuuuutt a BM buff would be appreciated

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Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:41 pm
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svladcjelli42 wrote:
Corvid Crow, I would take your opinion more seriously if you actually watched the games I posted. I've seen your mage from 0.9b and frankly think you're a little bit overrated. Dair isn't the only approach in the kit.

Edit: if you don't grok that horizontal teleport is better than BM's run at various distances I just don't know what to tell you, other than you're missing out.



umm okay you realise that against anyone competent at the game would be able to punish BM warp. grounded teleport is literally leaving yourself as a sitting duck for fair bit, and it doesnt help that the warp literally moves as fast as BM running. This character is more defensive than in 9b but this sort of camping wouldnt work unless ur against a really bad player.

Like i get if ur wanting to like retreat after hitting someone offstage by setting up a wall of fsmash + meteors which is actually not that bad of an option for an edgeguard but trying to do that in neutral is literally the most unoptimal spacing strategy ive heard of in my two years of playing this character.

Thundaga has around 90~ frame start up, which in this game is around 3 seconds. Think about that for a moment

You could use those three seconds to maybe idk f*** MOVE AROUND AND ACTUALLY THREATEN YOUR OPPONENT with things that arent beaten out by airdodging or reflecting or a f*** powershield, which no matter how bad the lag or w/e is, is one of the easiest things to do in this whole game because thundaga moves slow as s***.

like seriously in the space of three seconds every character can easily get from one side of fd to the other. think about that.

also thanks for the random criticism on something i cant even do in beta so idk what's the point of bringing 9b s*** up ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

TSF|Skylar wrote:
^

Speaking of recovery, why is Warp so unresponsive to player inputs?What i mean that it takes quite a while for Mage to actually adjust his warp circle aim when changing directions, which make Up B mixups pretty much unviable. I dont think it would exactly break the character (maybe because Im not thinking this through, but in all honesty that can be said about this game's balance as a whole) and Warp being so unresponsive just feels super off.


There's actually no input delay on changing warp directions, as beta kept Warp direction changes to how they were in 9b, where the direction can only be changed when you are halfway from the maximum distance from that specific warp angle. They are still somewhat viable as mixups as you're still ale to adjust Warp in all 8 directions and BM's floatiness can provide mixups when coming near the ledge. Basically since you are inputting it early, you feel like theres lag to it when really you're buffering your warp direction when you reach the half length of your first warp direction.




Anyway back to more relevant things, I feel like BM still has solid potential as a counterpick character, specifically sheik falcon and possibly goku, mainly because the tools BM needs vs those characters in neutral were not hit super hard, and BM did well vs all of them in 9b due to contending in neutral fairly well.

Goku in particular though is odd, because i think we get f*** on by him on flat stages, but its much different on tri plats and the like due to BM's better neutral options with the platforms. It might be all theory crafting from toying with both characters tools and how they would interact, but it might not be as bad as you think. Thoughts?

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Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:43 am
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trying to do that in neutral


Ok, this is a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about neutral (unless I guess it's a huge stage and a really slow moving opponent), I am talking about immediately after you hit your opponent away, instead of chasing them.

You say teleport literally moves as fast as run, but it's faster. Test that s*** out. FWIW, I've beaten you in BM dittos in 0.9b, and I remember the hardest thing about it was making myself believe that you really were going to keep approaching with only dair.

The slowness of the projectile is its strength. Again, it's not about actually trying to hit your opponent with thundaga or blizzaga, it's about getting ahead of the really slow projectile and taking advantage of your opponent's mildly reduced options.

Your Goku comment is funny, the strategy you are dismissing is pretty helpful against Goku on FD.

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Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:48 pm
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svladcjelli42 wrote:
You say teleport literally moves as fast as run, but it's faster. Test that s*** out.


I started a BM v mario match on FD, and buffered run and sideways teleport. To reach maximum distance (just in front of mario) and get out of end lag takes 1.67 seconds, according to the game timer. Passing mario by running takes 1.47 seconds. A shorter teleport would be even less efficient, because the ratio of traveling time to start/endlag is higher.

Of course, this was an experiment done in literally 30 seconds, but feel free to do it yourself to verify. In any case, running appears to be better by ~6 frames across that distance.

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Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:50 pm
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svladcjelli42 wrote:
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trying to do that in neutral


Ok, this is a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about neutral (unless I guess it's a huge stage and a really slow moving opponent), I am talking about immediately after you hit your opponent away, instead of chasing them.

You say teleport literally moves as fast as run, but it's faster. Test that s*** out. FWIW, I've beaten you in BM dittos in 0.9b, and I remember the hardest thing about it was making myself believe that you really were going to keep approaching with only dair.

The slowness of the projectile is its strength. Again, it's not about actually trying to hit your opponent with thundaga or blizzaga, it's about getting ahead of the really slow projectile and taking advantage of your opponent's mildly reduced options.

Your Goku comment is funny, the strategy you are dismissing is pretty helpful against Goku on FD.



Okay so basically you're saying to use thundaga to cover options once you've gained stage control, which as i said isn't an awful idea, you give your opponent another projectile to deal with and that helps with pressuring your opponent in disadvantage especially with the use of meteor.

A key thing about the replays that you did show is that your opponents don't really try and challenge you while you're charging thundaga, making it seem really bad, particularly in the way you're using it. Again, this idea works a lot better when your opponent is offstage, due to the fact that most characters will have to deal with it while forced to use a recovery move or get off of ledge, as well as the fact that BM can just run in and use moves alongside that wall of thunder. It's definitely an option but when you do resort to this you have to accept that in almost all cases you're basically dropping an edgeguard situation with a character that thrives off of gimping. This idea seems really good on paper until you realise that Thundaga also phases in and out of having a hitbox meaning that it has blind spots when used in that fashion

I've tested BM movement the most out of literally anyone and I can tell you that horizontal Warp travels as far as his run, it might seem faster due to the fact that BM doesnt need to slow down in order to use tilts/fsmash/dsmash due to him being in run animation, but the Warp landing lag makes it slightly worse.

Also if ur gonna boast about beating me in one of my worst 9b mus while playing in friendlies and playing fairly autopilot then idk what to tell you lmao, we defs did not play in bracket ever so you can't really say much.

Thing about Goku on FD is while advantage state might be a little better due to Goku escape options being better onstage, neutral is an absolute nightmare due to ki blasts as well as Goku's approach game being really good. I stated that triplats would be better as BM would have more tools to combat ki blasts and sh nair thanks to platforms. This stategy of yours wouldn't help too much when, again, you're better off going for meteors and fsmash to punish a recovery attempt.

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Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:53 am
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NAir got some of his old hitlag back

It's godlike again :chibirobo:

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Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 am
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Drarky wrote:
NAir got some of his old hitlag back

It's godlike again :chibirobo:


Did it really? It's not noted at all for the patch notes so idk

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Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:31 am
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Corvid Crow wrote:
Drarky wrote:
NAir got some of his old hitlag back

It's godlike again :chibirobo:


Did it really? It's not noted at all for the patch notes so idk


Yes. 1.0.2's NAir barely did a thing. Since the update, the ammount hitlag the thing does means that it can actually does some more % and lead to some decent stuff. It's a pretty good thing :chibirobo:

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Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:50 pm
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I mean with its better hitlag it would lead into stuff much much better which we really do need especially off of our fastest oos option

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Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:44 am
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So, Mage now has a Frame 1 Nair which can combo into just about anything you want. Im not even going to question this decision at this point, but looks like Mage is back to high tier status :chibirobo:

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Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:27 am
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TSF|Skylar wrote:
So, Mage now has a Frame 2* Nair


Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:46 am
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I like the changes made to :blackmage: , but I've become so out of practice that I can't use my old main well anymore. I can't even play classic mode with him. :cry:

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Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 pm
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BM's Dash ATK is Crazy. I used to Only Dash Attack as random characters, but I'm not much of a fan of his because of the Deley



Love everything else for the most part though :blackmage: :blackmage:

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Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm
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Dash Attack works more like a counter instead of your traditional Dash Attack. The super armor is very strong, but the timing to get it is kinda strict. It's a nice mix-up, but not something you should rely-on, to be honest.

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Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:48 pm
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Drarky wrote:
Dash Attack works more like a counter instead of your traditional Dash Attack. The super armor is very strong, but the timing to get it is kinda strict. It's a nice mix-up, but not something you should rely-on, to be honest.


that sounds about right. BM's all about timing

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:11 am
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